7/10/2007 iMEGA Suit Against UIGEA Strongest Fight Against the US Bill

[TheEngineer]

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Your Attorney General still says it's illegal if you bet.

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Can you post the AG opinion statement? That should clarify, especially to the extent poker is affected.

[JPFisher55]

Unfortunately, AG's like a lot of prosecutors, think Nifong and DOJ, make lots of statements of law that they can't and won't back up.
Don't believe Jay Nixon; believe the case law that I and Skallagrim have cited.

[MiltonFriedman]

I think you are feigning an ignorance which is beneath you. That is a disappointment. You ain't Socrates.

I referred you to the ACLU v Gonzales caselaw which is on point as to how the Federal Act cannot simply trod on peoples' rights in State B because State A law provides a different measure of what those rights are for State A residents. The measure of such State A rights in cyberspace is discussed, as is the need for less intrusive legislation.(I am not saying what the standard will be among possible reviews by the Court, but pointing out that precedent does exist for determining the proper way to balance rights among citizens of differing States when they intersect in cyberspace.)

To address your point directly, I nowhere said the hypothetical site was in Mo.

In any event, why would a site's location offshore make illegal its otherwise lawful conduct ?* Being foreign does not make a business unlawful, ever buy a foreign automobile / The location of the poker site is irrelevant under UIGE Act, especially if a site is located and licensed to conduct its business legally from say the UK or Costa Rica, Antigua or the Isle of Mann. If there is no federal ban on poker sites, and we are assuming arguendo State B allows players to play, what is "unlawful" ?

What is chilled is the availability of services, including banking services, to conduct that lawful activity. Congress used a meat-ax, a scapel was required to protect whatever "legitimate state interest" may underly the enacted prohibition.

* The WTO case involves that premise, that discrimination on nation origin cannot be legal under that trade agreement. Just wait until some of the other trade agreement litigation picks up steam, under GATT and other agreements.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, AG's like a lot of prosecutors, think Nifong and DOJ, make lots of statements of law that they can't and won't back up.
Don't believe Jay Nixon; believe the case law that I and Skallagrim have cited.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I was curious to see the statement.

It's fine for the AG to have an opinion, but AGs don't make laws (legislative branch), nor do they interpret them (judicial branch). Seems odd for Bachus and the other prohibitionists to cite executive branch opinions, as their only function is to enforce the laws others pass and interpret. As such, it would be interesting to see what laws the AG cites in his opinion.

[Skallagrim]

I'd like to see the actual statement of that Missouri AG too, are you certain he was specifically referring to PLAYING poker on the internet? I doubt it, he was probably referring to laws that forbid runnning an unlicensed casino in Missouri. And even if he believes that law applies to the internet (Missouri gambling laws do not mention the internet at all) this is a highly dubious opinion for legal reasons we have discussed too many times before for me to repeat them now and would not apply to players anyway.

Whose opinion is correct? No one will know for certain until there is an opinion from the highest court with jurisdiction.

And one final point on AG opinions, it was not that long ago that many US Attorneys were running around saying that poker was "unquestionably" covered by the Wire Act (a few of the political appointees STILL do); this did not in any way stop 2 US Circuit Courts of Appeal from ruling that the Wire Act only applies to sports betting, rulings pretty much accepted as final now in the legal community given the same US Attorney Office's decision to not appeal these cases to the US Supreme Court.

Skallagrim

[permafrost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your Attorney General still says it's illegal if you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you post the AG opinion statement? That should clarify, especially to the extent poker is affected.

[/ QUOTE ]

JP claimed upthread that poker is a skill game in Missouri, then leapt to the conclusion that betting on internet poker was legal there. I made a link upthread to the AG's website that states betting on skill games in unlawful. That's as close to an opinion as we are likely to get. If it was lawful to deal poker as an unregulated skill game in Missouri, there would be a business or two in every town. When some enterprise opens dealing poker, gets hauled to court and wins, the AG can change his stance. If you think he needs to sooner, please write him

Until we find some legal business at risk from or injured by UIGEA, where's the complaint?

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
JP claimed upthread that poker is a skill game in Missouri, then leapt to the conclusion that betting on internet poker was legal there. I made a link upthread to the AG's website that states betting on skill games in unlawful. That's as close to an opinion as we are likely to get. If it was lawful to deal poker as an unregulated skill game in Missouri, there would be a business or two in every town. When some enterprise opens dealing poker, gets hauled to court and wins, the AG can change his stance. If you think he needs to sooner, please write him

Until we find some legal business at risk from or injured by UIGEA, where's the complaint?

[/ QUOTE ]

The AG's website states the following:

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Internet gambling in Missouri
Don't be fooled by assurances from Internet gambling operators that it is legal to play online in Missouri. It is illegal for out-of-state gambling operations to offer Internet gambling to Missouri residents.

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It claims it's illegal for out-of-state sites to offer gambling, but nothing about playing. It also doesn't list applicable laws, nor it is specific what's meant by "gambling".

Applicable laws are summarized at www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Missouri. Their definition of chance:

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"Contest of chance" means any contest, game, gaming scheme or gaming device in which the outcome depends in a material degree upon an element of chance, notwithstanding that the skill of the contestants may also be a factor therein;

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As for skill games, King.com lists Missouri as one of the 14 states in which it cannot offer its games.

Off-topic, it looks like we're all professional players in MO:

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"Professional player" means a player who engages in gambling for a livelihood or who has derived at least twenty percent of his income in any one year within the past five years from acting solely as a player;

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[JPFisher55]

I cited a case Harris v. Missouri Gaming Commission in which the court ruled that poker is a game of skill not chance in Missouri. Skallagrim first cited this case.
Maybe the AG's website refers to other games such as blackjack and sportsbetting. Although Missouri lacks a law making the activity of the online player illegal.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
I cited a case Harris v. Missouri Gaming Commission in which the court ruled that poker is a game of skill not chance in Missouri. Skallagrim first cited this case.
Maybe the AG's website refers to other games such as blackjack and sportsbetting. Although Missouri lacks a law making the activity of the online player illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. That's what I meant when I commented on the fact that the website didn't define the term "gambling". The AG's website reads exactly as I posted it. However, this doesn't mean the AG knows what he's talking about.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

is chilled actually a legal term?