non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff

[Brainwalter]

Probably sex is better without the profit motive. (But Nielsio is still right and voluntary>involuntary!)

[bkholdem]

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People are being sold an insurance policy on getting attacked. Usually, they're not gonna get attacked, and they're think "oh my training is GREAT!" and no harm will be done to them. Similarly, usually your house won't be destroyed in a hurricane, and in that case, I'm not really harming you am I?


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There probably isnt a market for hard core martial arts courses because people in these areas arent constantly being attack by super ninjas on their way home from work.

The average joe is provided much more protection from random crime just by the fact that they drive everywhere and dont spend their free time around a bunch drunken hooligans. So its much more likely that these people prefer a form of exercise that is provided by a light form of martial arts. Martial arts as a sport can used as a fun past time without the expectation that you are going to use it to protect yourself double dragon style.

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There are potentially other factors at play as well. OP stated that a person who was not in good shape would proably not like the judo classes so it is not fair to assess that the physical contact in the judo class is a +EV experience for everyone and a lot of people are not willing to pay the price, considering the pain and suffering a 'necessary evil'.

There is also status. Some people are happy having more expensive goods and services even if they are not getting comprable value. They get it from paying more or for having a unique good or service.

Additionally, people value the illusion of safety. Participating in martial arts training provides this. People who want real personal safety take judo, boxing, or glock-fu. All of these have addition drawbacks (in some people's view, in others view they are benefits) that a fluff martial arts class does not have.

[bkholdem]

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conclusion: sometimes the profit motive sucks.
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Non profit organizations cannot survive without the good will of others; so yes, while that good will exists no profit organizations are fine but what if that good will goes away? So anything non profit organizations do is great but not neccessary going to be around; profit organizations are self sustaining.

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This is not necessarily true. It is only true so long as people value profit and do not value things such as benevolance. It is contingent upon people's values.

It is quite possible that the world will evolve into democracy, then move to AC, then move onto communal living or whatever.

None of us have a crystal ball.

[bkholdem]

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"Ok, sorry if you think I'm being captain obvious here, but I mainly made this post in he hopes that some of you would share some other examples of when non-profit organizations might outperform for-profit organizations."

The church outperfroms the state.

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YOur going to have to give me some examples to choose from. I think non profit entities often have different goals than for profit entities so you wind up measuring 2 different things I think.

What about not for profit friendships outperform for profit friendships.

Not for profit social relationships outperform for profit social relationships.

[bkholdem]

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I've been to many for profit gyms structured the way your judo gym is structured. I currently do jujitzu at a forprofit place that has the exact same structure.

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I should have brought this up in OP. There are definitely very good products and services that are produced for profit, however, if I do a search in los angeles for "brazilian jiu-jitsu" and a search for "Karate" I get 10x more results for karate. Guess which one is more effective, and more challenging?
Karate students are looking for the same thing that BJJ students are looking for, and they think they're getting it, but they aren't.

Standard dogma is that the only way for a business to succeed is to please their consumers. There are some markets where this seems to systemically not be the case. What % of karate students do you think would be pleased if they were in jail and their cellmate tried to rape them? My guess is maybe 10%. A BJJ student is going to break several of that rapist's bones, and sleep well with an intact bunghole like 90% of the time.

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YOur making a lot of assumptions about the karate students and that is not fair whether you realize it or not. A whole crapload of karate students do not want full balls on grapping training and the pain and suffering that comes along with it. They want quazi self defense exercise lite and a lot want it extra lite.

People who want to be tough as nails can go training in a boxing gym, judo, and bjj dojo's night and day and then practice with friends for free night and day 7 days a week.

They can start out by doing aerobic exercise and streaching llite weight training drills for free 4 hrs a day, 7 days a week for a year or so without paying anyone a dime.

Some people want knowledge, some want a degree. Some want both. One is free, the other costs 100k.

Some people want skills, others want status and something to talk to their friends about.

If I become best friends with the Gracie family where they just think I"m fantastic and it pleases them to have me around, am I going to get better value from trading my friendship with them for training, or am I going to get better value from paying some fairly high rated bbj school?

[bkholdem]

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The only industry I know where there is a plethora of products equally as good if not better than commercial alternatives is the software industry and its various form of free open-source movement. The really interesting aspect of this is that where there exists a free product alternative of equal or superior quality it hasn't destroyed the commercial alternatives viability.

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A lot of people perfer conforming or going along with the majority rather than finding the lowest $ cost good or service.

[Brainwalter]

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The only industry I know where there is a plethora of products equally as good if not better than commercial alternatives is the software industry and its various form of free open-source movement. The really interesting aspect of this is that where there exists a free product alternative of equal or superior quality it hasn't destroyed the commercial alternatives viability.

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A lot of people perfer conforming or going along with the majority rather than finding the lowest $ cost good or service.

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They're called statists! Hehe

[SNOWBALL]

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If I become best friends with the Gracie family where they just think I"m fantastic and it pleases them to have me around, am I going to get better value from trading my friendship with them for training, or am I going to get better value from paying some fairly high rated bbj school?



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Tough decision. It's hard to turn down a brazilian BJ.

[SNOWBALL]

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Now, as for your specific example, as a fellow martial artist I think you are unfair to assume that everyone wants the same thing in a martial arts class--I'm sure everyone wants to learn some degree of basic self-defense, but many (myself included) want to learn other things beyond that. I know I wouldn't be happy at a school that focused solely on self-defense and sparring (at the expense of, say, forms), since I think the forms are beautiful and I love doing them.


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fair enough, but do you think that people like you account for the extreme differential between 2700 karate schools and 270 BJJ schools?

A lot of people will leave stylistic schools when they realize their training leaves something to be desired self-defense wise. My first JKD instructor was one of those people. He got threw his kempo black belt in the trash when he realized that despite all the training he had, he still didn't know how to defend himself.

[bkholdem]

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Now, as for your specific example, as a fellow martial artist I think you are unfair to assume that everyone wants the same thing in a martial arts class--I'm sure everyone wants to learn some degree of basic self-defense, but many (myself included) want to learn other things beyond that. I know I wouldn't be happy at a school that focused solely on self-defense and sparring (at the expense of, say, forms), since I think the forms are beautiful and I love doing them.


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fair enough, but do you think that people like you account for the extreme differential between 2700 karate schools and 270 BJJ schools?

A lot of people will leave stylistic schools when they realize their training leaves something to be desired self-defense wise. My first JKD instructor was one of those people. He got threw his kempo black belt in the trash when he realized that despite all the training he had, he still didn't know how to defend himself.

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How long has karate been around and how long has BJJ been around? Do you think this might have something to do with it as well? You don't really expect as many people who know of karate to know of BJJ do you? Nor should you think that they should I would venture to say.