Roulette Croupier Manipulation?

[Spaderess]

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I was in a discussion with several casino employees. They claim many practiced Croupiers, using the right timing and force, can make the ball lands in a certain sector of the wheel at a much higher frequency than standard, making it profitable (and illegal) for him or her to team up with someone on the outside.

Is this possible? How do Casinos protect against it?

Thanks,

Oscar

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A very good article of why it is impossible can be found here:
Steve Forte

[jackhigh]

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I was in a discussion with several casino employees. They claim many practiced Croupiers, using the right timing and force, can make the ball lands in a certain sector of the wheel at a much higher frequency than standard, making it profitable (and illegal) for him or her to team up with someone on the outside.

Is this possible? How do Casinos protect against it?

Thanks,

Oscar

[/ QUOTE ]

A very good article of why it is impossible can be found here:
Steve Forte

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Obviously this Steve Forte is a shill for the casino! Roulette wheel manupulation is absolutely and irrefutably (sp) practiced by some casinos! I will comment on some of his arguments:

"A section shooting dealer must first push the rotor perfectly to a practiced, pre-determined speed. The ball must then be placed into the track perfectly at a pre-determined starting point. The ball spin would then have to begin with the same practiced initial velocity, carrying the ball perfect around the track a consistent number of revolutions before drop off. These are the physical skills that would have to be perfected. It would not at all be just a matter of interpreting observations of events that had already occurred."

Nothing has to be perfect! The dealer simply advances the wheel at a constant speed (the wheel is heavy, balanced, and well lubricated maintaining a constant speed for several revolutions) and release ( with backspin) the ball at a "target" number. He doesn't have to get it right all the time - just some of the time to greatly increase that 5.26% casino edge.

"There are two procedures that effectively stop any possibility of the roulette section shooting or steering myth from becoming a reality. They are the “blind spin,” where the dealer spins the ball without ever glancing into the rotor, and the “last pocket spin,” where the dealer picks the ball out of the winning pocket, waits one revolution and spins from the same position the ball last landed. Both the pit boss and Harry McArdle point to these procedures as proof that roulette section shooting or steering exists"

He's right, most dealers in the bigger casinos don't aim and simply use a blind spin. But a majority in the smaller casinos and indian casinos in my opinion do! It's simple, if they look at the wheel and seem to be waiting for a "target number" before they release the ball... they are aiming!!! It is obvious when you see it happening.

"This was no surprise, since the best roulette dealers in the world come from Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico. Having spent time in the casinos of the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico, and having watched the Cuban dealers work here in the states, I can vouch for their incredible mastery of and dedication to the wheel. With a combined 75 years of dealing experience between them, both in Cuba and in the U.S., they were asked for their opinions regarding the recent controversy. They laughed and said, “If we could do that, do you think we’d still be working?”

Their response suggests two very important contradictions to Scott: “Why would anyone develop this skill to cheat players when you could work with outside accomplices to cheat casinos?” and, “If, in fact, this skill was real, you might just have the perfect crime as far as gambling scams go.” "

This is HOGWASH and one of the biggest "roullette is not rigged because..." cliche's . Pit bosses are totally aware of this procedure and a cheating dealer would be found out easily by tracking his larger than average payouts and reviewing the "eye in the sky" videos.

"Finally, how many roulette players are then vulnerable? You can’t cheat any player who bets after the ball is released, skilled or otherwise. You can’t cheat the majority of system players or typical players who spread multiple bets across the layout with no preference for specific numbers or sectors. So who’s left? The occasional player who makes one straight-up bet or a few bets in a specific section? When you do find these roulette players, what happens when other players are betting the other side of the wheel? "

This too is a false argument. Most roulette players are not "system" players and simply have no clue what is going on. The majority of roulette bets are in the middle center of the layout 17,20 etc.. There is an 8 number "sweet spot" section right before the 00 that is statistically proven to receive the least amount of bets. The dealer simply aims for this section... the house probably doubles or triples their vig, thus making roulette profitable enough to justify 2 dealers and valuable floor space (in the smaller joints).

If a dealer spots a "section" player (not hard) he simply throws a random ball and the section player goes away quickly.

One time, playing at "Casino Royale" in Vegas, i was "randomly" (trying to disguise my play pre spin) playing the "sweet spot" section on a full table and one of the dealers kept yelling out "he's on the numbers" to the croupier... totally obvious. I was playing at the Taos Mtn Casino several years ago and was totally rockin the table quadrupled my buyin playing the "sweet splits" (i would split my sweet spot bets depending on the croupier release thus covering opposite sections... making it harder for the croupier to aim away from my sections). The pit boss came over, totally sweating me a few spins, and then whispered something in the dealers ear. On the very next and subsequent spins the dealer said "no more bets" instantaneously after he threw the ball! This obviously killed my advantage... I cashed in and walked (to their delight).

[NajdorfDefense]

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Most people don't know this, but they also use two diffeent sized balls. They are instructed to spin the ball fast and slow, and to vary the speed of the wheel. Eudaemonic pi is a very good read.

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Read it years ago. I don't think you understood the point, and many dealers do not vary the speed of the wheel.

Feel free to show all casino wheels are perfectly random.

[Ringo]

I used to deal roulette, and heard all the stories of people claiming to be able to do it. Confirmation bias plays a part in it.. they'll hit a 1/3 section around 1/3 of the time, apart from the other 2/3 of the time when they make a mistake ("It's not 100%", etc).

Steve Forte is very knowledgable, and whilst I'm not saying it's impossible, I think it's very unlikely. Very very very unlikely.

[sonneti]

My girlfriend and one of her croupier friends have claimed to be able to do this on some wheels. I've never had a chance to test it but I guess it might be possible if the settings are right badly alligned wheel, wrong size ball etc.

[talentdeficit]

it's theoretically possible, i don't think it happens in practice. here's why:

let's assume we have a superhuman croupier who, 20% of the time, can hit one eight number sector. that is, on 20% of his spins, one of those numbers will come up (evenly distributed over those eight numbers). the rest of the time the wheel is truly random.

so each of our eight target spots come up:

(1/38 * 4/5) + (1/8 * 1/5) = 7/152 = ~4.6% of the time.

so if we bet just one of the eight possible numbers, we make ~0.65 bets per spin. on every spin. that's every spin, not just the 20% that our croupier is accurate.

but the croupier will get caught because the number distribution on his spins won't match with probability! except he won't, because he just changes his eight section target so that each number is within his target range at the same rate as every other number. he can do this just by adding some offset to his target after every x spins. he can change his offset too, to further obscure any attempts to detect him. he can change his partner to prevent casinos from catching on that way. if he wants to get real tricky, he can wait for some bets to be placed before his release and aim to win them, to prevent payouts at his table from getting out of hand.

in short, anyone who can do this can make absurd amounts of money in a short period of time without being detected. no one would waste their time cheating customers if they could make millions virtually risk free.

[Crane]

A long time ago I told a friend of mine about the book The Eudaemonic Pie. He read it and found it interesting, but basically forgot about it. He was an auction freak. One day at an auction he came across a regulation size roulette wheel and table. He bought it and put it in his basement.

He got to thinking about the book again and started practicing. He got really, really good at not only placing the ball, but at picking a quadrant of numbers.

He started playing in some of the local Indian casinos. I ran into him one day, and he said, "Hey, man I'm beating the s*it out of roulette, just like you told me I could. I'm using your system. Come watch me play."

We talked for a bit, and I was in kind of a stupor about the whole thing. I watched him play and he cleaned up. He would make cover plays and stuff like that, but he would hit the number two or three times in a row, or five out of seven, or somthing similar and then quit.

He always looked for a sleepy dealer who didn't seem very interested in what they were doing. He looked for a dealer who was in a rut. He wanted someone to throw the ball and spin the wheel almost the same way every time.

He knew the system. The sharp dealers would vary their spin and use two different size balls. The sleepy dealers just didn't care, and would do it the same way time after time. He would pretend to be wandering around, but he was watching closely and would jump in when he found the right situation.

He went from casino to casino.

He was a pretty consistent winner, but the casino had him pegged after a while and he couldn't do anything about their counter measures.

It can be beat. I've seen it with my own eyes. I even tried it, but it's harder than it looks and takes a lot of practice.

The casinos understand this and use a lot of different counter measures to keep guys like him from taking shots.

Believe it or not.

[jackhigh]

[ QUOTE ]
it's theoretically possible, i don't think it happens in practice. here's why:

let's assume we have a superhuman croupier who, 20% of the time, can hit one eight number sector. that is, on 20% of his spins, one of those numbers will come up (evenly distributed over those eight numbers). the rest of the time the wheel is truly random.

so each of our eight target spots come up:

(1/38 * 4/5) + (1/8 * 1/5) = 7/152 = ~4.6% of the time.

so if we bet just one of the eight possible numbers, we make ~0.65 bets per spin. on every spin. that's every spin, not just the 20% that our croupier is accurate.

but the croupier will get caught because the number distribution on his spins won't match with probability! except he won't, because he just changes his eight section target so that each number is within his target range at the same rate as every other number. he can do this just by adding some offset to his target after every x spins. he can change his offset too, to further obscure any attempts to detect him. he can change his partner to prevent casinos from catching on that way. if he wants to get real tricky, he can wait for some bets to be placed before his release and aim to win them, to prevent payouts at his table from getting out of hand.

in short, anyone who can do this can make absurd amounts of money in a short period of time without being detected. no one would waste their time cheating customers if they could make millions virtually risk free.

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I am not certain but it makes sense to think that the dealers "cheat" the players in roulette in order to receive some sort of extra "commission" from the casino. Otherwise, I see no reason for a dealer to do so. Maybe casino pressure to hit some sort of target "daily take"?

"in short, anyone who can do this can make absurd amounts of money in a short period of time without being detected. no one would waste their time cheating customers if they could make millions virtually risk free."

Since the Pit Bosses are well aware of the aiming technique it would be virtually impossible to make "absurd" amounts of money by the dealer aiming for an accomplice. He might get away with a few thousand before the bosses notice his high payouts are way above average. Whenever huge money comes into play, the dealer almost always announces it to the floor. His job is probably worth more than making a few more thousand a week with the possibilty of big time felony rap (or broken knees!) - or just being fired and blackballed for suspicion.

[talentdeficit]

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Since the Pit Bosses are well aware of the aiming technique it would be virtually impossible to make "absurd" amounts of money by the dealer aiming for an accomplice. He might get away with a few thousand before the bosses notice his high payouts are way above average. Whenever huge money comes into play, the dealer almost always announces it to the floor. His job is probably worth more than making a few more thousand a week with the possibilty of big time felony rap (or broken knees!) - or just being fired and blackballed for suspicion.

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if the dealer can control who wins, he can also control who loses. all he has to do is make sure some sucker loses whatever he helps his accomplice win.

[jackhigh]

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Since the Pit Bosses are well aware of the aiming technique it would be virtually impossible to make "absurd" amounts of money by the dealer aiming for an accomplice. He might get away with a few thousand before the bosses notice his high payouts are way above average. Whenever huge money comes into play, the dealer almost always announces it to the floor. His job is probably worth more than making a few more thousand a week with the possibilty of big time felony rap (or broken knees!) - or just being fired and blackballed for suspicion.

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if the dealer can control who wins, he can also control who loses. all he has to do is make sure some sucker loses whatever he helps his accomplice win.

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This strategy definitely makes sense. However, the floor is always aware of the large cash outs when the dealer colors up the chips. Therefore, the pit boss wouldn't even need to see the days avg shift numbers to know if a dealer is "dumping" to an accomplice. He would know somethings fishy simply by keeping track of a suspected dealers higher than average large cash outs regardless of what he takes in.

I would say 90% of avg roulette players cash out for less (or never cash out at all) than their buy in. So noticing abnormally high "cash outs" would be quite easy.