ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[junglewarfare]

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Embarrassingly, although I've seen it mentioned on here many times, and am aware it was scam related, I don't know what Enron is/was/does/did.

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"WOW"

[terp]

just to add to the pile on, did anyone else feel like reading his website was like watching zoolander?

compare:
"There has got to be more to life than just being a really, really, really, ridiculously good poker player."

with:
"Becoming a great poker player is a long journey that starts years before the cards are ever dealt."


cruelest of all:
"Expect big things from me, specifically final tables when I turn 21. I will not disappoint."

[Lori]

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do you really think after zj just got cheating he will cheat again on his home site?

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Let's just say I'd rather not be his Grandmother. Especially if my house had valuable antiques in it.

Lori

[N 82 50 24]

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But it nonetheless remains, that you and others knew players here that you post with day in and day out, were being cheated as you yourselves were too of course, and yet failed to even come here and start a generic thread without mentioning names, warning your fellow 2+2'ers that they were being cheated in general so that they could complain to the poker sites and get them to investigate larger buyin tourneys and even SNGs.

If you don't see it that way, and especially if you think your friendship with cheaters precluded you from making such an explicit anonymous warning, which from you as a respected poster presumably would have been taken at face value, then you are lacking in both ethics yourself as well as a sense of common purpose with other 2+2'ers.

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I get the feeling it's still going on, although I don't know that to be the case. Maybe people will stop for a little bit because this issue is under the microscope right now, but eventually people will forget and things will return to normal. It's just a matter of time until it happens again. It's the sad truth, but the truth nonetheless.

I can think of a lot of people who I'm almost positive have done this and a lot more that I suspect of having done this. It's the site's job to catch them, not mine. If you're looking for a generic warning, then I guess I should say that cheating and stealing occurs wherever there is even the slightest opportunity to do so. If it's easy to do, then you can be sure that it's happening. Online poker, unfortunately, is absurdly easy to cheat. If I wasn't raised the right way, I'd be cheating it right now instead of spending time following this thread. For most people, their greed speaks louder.

Also, what ZJ isn't the same as what some people do on a day-to-day basis. If anyone thinks putting six accounts is equivalent to sitting three people each at the pot limit omaha cash game tables and running a computer program that helps you figure out dead outs, then you honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Are they both wrong? Yes. Is the intent to cheat EV from other people? Yes. Are they the same? No, not at all. ZJ didn't enter tournaments with the express purpose of collusion or to go kamikaze and go nuts just to build a huge stack on one. He did it so he could maximize the EV of spending an afternoon/evening in front of his computer. Don't think that I'm saying it's okay, because it's NOT. It IS still cheating. However, don't mistake it with people who intend to collude and cheat the actual game play. While that may have happened inadvertantly with Justin and others, I can assure you that was not the intent and that he would probably have preferred to never sit with himself. He would have beaten the game regardless, just for 1/6th the amount of expectation (I'm assuming he had 6 in everything and that he also didn't realize his true expectation due to the sample size of a year or two of play). The difference is that he got a lot more out of his afternoon in EV than he would have playing one account. They're really different forms of cheating. Both wrong, but don't confuse them.

This was probably a mistake to even say this because I get the feeling most of the people responding here don't even understand what happened or what I'm trying to get across to you. But I'd like to at least make an attempt.

[gumpzilla]

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The reason I and others are hammering Stars on this rather than party is that it's well known that Party doesn't give a crap about this stuff. They care only about the $$. Stars has taken the same tack on this issue but has somehow managed to keep their reputation of being focused on game integrity.

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I'm reasonably sure that as an institution, the only reason that Stars would care about game integrity is the bottom line anyway.

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I think what most of us would like to see is them recognize the shortcoming, address it thoroughly, and resume their role as the site well-informed consumers trust the most with their money.

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I agree with this, obviously.

[GETT1NLOTS]

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This was probably a mistake to even say this because I get the feeling most of the people responding here don't even understand what happened or what I'm trying to get across to you. But I'd like to at least make an attempt.

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Are you always this patronising? I understood very well thank you. Even posting what you have is tantamount to apologising for a cheat. Shame on you.

[El Diablo]

Nick: Re: banning Justin v. Dutch Boyd. While Dutch apparently ripped a lot of people off, there is no evidence I'm aware of that he cheated at poker. It would be far more appropriate to ban Justin from tournaments than to ban Dutch.

N: There was outrage at Noah for his mulit-accounting and for Stars handling of that. There was outrage at Stars for not coming out against Twincaracas and other players softplaying each other in ring games. There is outrage against Stars for not taking a more proactive stance against players like JJ and ZJ. ZJ is the issue of the moment, so that's where the focus is, but there's definitely a lot of disappointment and anger across the forums regarding the way Stars is (not) handling this issue. The main reason there is not MORE outrage about some of these issues is that the vast majority of us are not in the "young online player" circle like you. It sounds like you are aware of many specific instances of this happening. I suspect the majority of people are like me. Through common sense we know this sort of BS is going on, but we are not aware of who the players are that are doing this or what their account names are. So you tell me. Do all of your friends do this? Have you done it? Are your friends still doing this?

ss: I don't think what I said was a contradiction. I believe Justin ended up in a very bad place. But I think he got there starting with good intentions and a hazy moral compass. I believe his statement that he started out just wanting to be able to play more tournaments in a given timeframe. I don't believe his statement that his levels of cheating did not escalate. Does it matter what degree of cheating his original intent was about? Maybe, maybe not. I was just saying that while I believe Justin likely cheated in some very, very bad ways, I suspect he started down that path with relatively benign intent.

[Caldarooni]

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I JUST WANT TO BE THE FIRST TO SAY THAT ANYONE THAT IS RIPPING ON CURTAINS IS CRAZY

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[Nick B.]

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For all those whom are sending nasty and threatening PMs to me, I am immediately putting you on ignore and never removing you, as well as anyone whom makes any accusations, veiled or direct about me in this thread. So keep having fun.

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Out them

[terp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it nonetheless remains, that you and others knew players here that you post with day in and day out, were being cheated as you yourselves were too of course, and yet failed to even come here and start a generic thread without mentioning names, warning your fellow 2+2'ers that they were being cheated in general so that they could complain to the poker sites and get them to investigate larger buyin tourneys and even SNGs.

If you don't see it that way, and especially if you think your friendship with cheaters precluded you from making such an explicit anonymous warning, which from you as a respected poster presumably would have been taken at face value, then you are lacking in both ethics yourself as well as a sense of common purpose with other 2+2'ers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get the feeling it's still going on, although I don't know that to be the case. Maybe people will stop for a little bit because this issue is under the microscope right now, but eventually people will forget and things will return to normal. It's just a matter of time until it happens again. It's the sad truth, but the truth nonetheless.

I can think of a lot of people who I'm almost positive have done this and a lot more that I suspect of having done this. It's the site's job to catch them, not mine. If you're looking for a generic warning, then I guess I should say that cheating and stealing occurs wherever there is even the slightest opportunity to do so. If it's easy to do, then you can be sure that it's happening. Online poker, unfortunately, is absurdly easy to cheat. If I wasn't raised the right way, I'd be cheating it right now instead of spending time following this thread. For most people, their greed speaks louder.

Also, what ZJ isn't the same as what some people do on a day-to-day basis. If anyone thinks putting six accounts is equivalent to sitting three people each at the pot limit omaha cash game tables and running a computer program that helps you figure out dead outs, then you honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Are they both wrong? Yes. Is the intent to cheat EV from other people? Yes. Are they the same? No, not at all. ZJ didn't enter tournaments with the express purpose of collusion or to go kamikaze and go nuts just to build a huge stack on one. He did it so he could maximize the EV of spending an afternoon/evening in front of his computer. Don't think that I'm saying it's okay, because it's NOT. It IS still cheating. However, don't mistake it with people who intend to collude and cheat the actual game play. While that may have happened inadvertantly with Justin and others, I can assure you that was not the intent and that he would probably have preferred to never sit with himself. He would have beaten the game regardless, just for 1/6th the amount of expectation (I'm assuming he had 6 in everything and that he also didn't realize his true expectation due to the sample size of a year or two of play). The difference is that he got a lot more out of his afternoon in EV than he would have playing one account. They're really different forms of cheating. Both wrong, but don't confuse them.

This was probably a mistake to even say this because I get the feeling most of the people responding here don't even understand what happened or what I'm trying to get across to you. But I'd like to at least make an attempt.

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we are not arguing the magnitude of wrong in his actions. you are trying to make that the focal point. it is not. any unethical gain of EV is dishonest and tarnishes any brand name that he sought to create.