ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[PrayingMantis]

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PrayingMantis,

I respect you a lot. You've contradicted yourself here.[ QUOTE ]
However, although I'm not particularly glad about the "fall" of ZJ, I'm glad with regard to the overall idea of poker sites doing something very real about this matter.



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Maybe it sounds contradictory, but sometimes people might have somewhat contradicting feelings about stuff. We are not machines. I hardly know ZJ, I've met him a couple of time as I said, and it was a rather brief encounter. My basic impression of him was that he is a nice kid, certainly not the kind who will be cheating. I was wrong. But still, I don't feel happy about his fall. I wish he didn't cheat, and thus would not be in this situation to begin with. It's not that I feel sorry for him, not at all, but in some sense I'm just too disappointed wrt to what he has done, in order to rejoice about all this.

I'm happy with the fact that a cheater got caught, and with the idea that the whole industry could be improved as a result of this, and this on a few levels. I am sorry if it sounds contradictory. I think that these are very normal feelings.

FWIW, I have never had more than one account on any site, always the same account from day 1, and never played on any account that isn't mine. My knolwledge about the fact that people are multiaccounting MTTs came exculsively from reading this very board, recently. I think it is clearly and completely unethical, and deserves punishment, as I stated before in one of the JJprodigy's threads.

[N 82 50 24]

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The major thing is Exclusive and craze9 aren't people that are really well known here by many, so the righteous fury of betrayal doesn't show up as much. Also, the craze9 thing is something you broke in this massive thread and hasn't been confirmed yet, so there's another angle.

The Exclusive thing is quite dodgy, and I hope Stars does go back and look at their future behavior in some detail. One of the arguments that lorinda pointed out was that it wasn't necessarily explicitly illegal then. That doesn't make it right, but retroactive punishment isn't fair either.

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I'd argue that they are both very well-known players, especially Exclusive. Granted they don't post as much on 2+2, but I'm not sure how that would make it different.

Also, the craze9/xxTHEJOKERxx thing was confirmed with Lee regarding a hand that was played. It was discussed earlier in this thread that joker is craze's brother's account, but craze obviously plays on it. And I did look at the WCOOP ME tourney history and they were both in it. I would not be at all surprised to see them in more tournaments together, but I haven't looked to see.

Also, Exclusive was warned in August that it could not happen again and that the rules were changed. Despite that, I would argue that the semantics of the rules are not what's important here. After all, if we're going to do that, then the issue is not whether ZJ was cheating from an ethical standpoint but if he cheating from a rules interpretation standpoint. I don't think we want to go down that road. Just say he was doing something he wasn't supposed to do... just like Exclusive.

Anyway, the WCOOP occurred after the Stars rule change. Despite that, craze9/xxTHEJOKERxx and a few Exclusive accounts still appeared in the same event(s) together. At one point, I remember Exclusive accounts being at the same table. Therefore, this happened even after the rule change as well.

[betgo]

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ZJ,

You should hire a criminal defense lawyer, and stop making statements. Seriously.

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I agree that statement was terrible form ZJ's point of view. He shouldn't say anything without contacting a lawyer. If he was completely innocent he could make a statement without that.

First of all, he admits to the accusation. Then he makes the bizarre claim that he opened up a bunch of SNGs when he was at the same to table as himself and this somehow prevented him from colluding with himself. Then he says Party could sieze other people's accounts if they are using Rakeback.

What ZeeJustin and JJProdigy did were not the most serious forms of cheating. There are some questions about how Party handled this. First they had a bug in theor software that allowed the multiaccounting with one computer and IP address. Secondly, they did not catch people doing this until complaints were brought about tournament winners. Thirdly, they siezed all funds in the players' accounts. If I was ZJ's lawyer there is an argument I could make.

While I don't think he can make any sort of legal case or there is any civil or criminal case likely to be made against him, he still would be better off not making statements without consulting an attorney.

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Ah, so if my door was unlocked, then it's okay to come in a take my furniture? Great argument there betgo... we can now see the level of integrity you possess.

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I am not defending what he did. I am just saying that an attorney could use that to make an argument. Clearly there are questions about how Party handled this, not to say I believe they handled it incorrectly.

I said that since he obviously was doing something wrong, he should consult with an attorney before making statements. There is unlikely to be an legal action, but his livelihood, reputation, and considerable amount of money are at stake.

If you are suspected of some crime, you are better off consulting a lawyer than making statements to the police or press.

I don't approve of what ZJ did. I implied earlier that one has to assume he took full advantage to collude and may be involved in other cheating.

[betadecay]

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Would anyone mind if a really poor player entered a tournament with more than one account, thereby adding additional dead money to the pot? Assume someone who had little chance of making it into the money.

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I thought about addressing this earlier but didn't. There is a big difference. ZJ opening up multiple accounts in a tourney is stealing from other players. That makes him a thief. A fish entering multiple times is giving money away to other players. That makes him a philanthropist

[Lloyd]

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one of my pet peeves. use "moot" instead of "mute" point.

rj

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It's actually a "moo point", not a "moot" point. You know, a point that a cow would make. It means nothing. It's a "moo" point.

[URMeowed]

I'll settle for some catnip. I'm starting to get into tourneys finally. I figured the best way to increase my EV in the online tourneys was to eliminate as many of the cheaters as possible instead of multi accounting. Cats are quite dumb, obviously.

For the record, Party already flagged his account so I can't take the credit for bringing him down. But I can take credit to getting the word out and creating this monster thread.

Believe me, that email went from my inbox to Neverwinpoker.com to here in less than a minute.

Actually, hold off on the medal and catnip. I'll take that PPM cruise he forfeited. I promise that will be my only entry into the event.

=^._.^=

[ackbleh]

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N: I believe the vast majority of people in this thread are disappointed and relatively outraged at the fact that Stars has not taken a more proactive position on this issue. Ackblheh has made some very good points regarding that.

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Who do you think would face more negative attitudes at a live tournament?

1. ZeeJustin
2. JJProdigy
3. Exclusive
4. craze9

If you're interpreting this the way that I am, I think the first two would face MUCH more hostility (I'm not saying they shouldn't face people's anger, I'm just referring to the marginal increase in anger versus the other two).

My point is that the people who didn't get funds frozen (or the ones who did it on Stars) have barely been critcized whereas ZJ and JJ have both had their names dragged through the mud. Other than the fact that ZJ and JJ have offered up poor apologies, I don't see the difference in their actions versus the other two. What am I missing?

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The only thing this post is missing is the acknowledgment that the list should be much, much, much longer.

[jman220]

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Whoever took the account names out should put them back.

The community has a right to as much transparancy as possible in this issue.

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The names can still be found throughout this thread (Hint: check the photoshops)

[runout_mick]

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RB,
I support your use of media to bring attention to this problem, but I would urge you to refrain from bringing poker forums to the attention of the media. While there are a lot of players who find out about this forum via various means, having major media outlets cover this scandel and mention this forum will create an influx of new members here that may ultimately cause a significant reduction in the fishiness of thousands of players.

While the relative handful of multi-account holders have somewhat lowered EV for the average honest player; plugging this forum to millions of television viewers and print media readers may have an EV lowering effect that makes the multi-account effect pale in comparison.

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Do you honestly think people don't know that they can get better at poker by studying? Just knowing about 2+2 won't make someone a better player.

Having the drive to decide to study and improve makes players better. I found this site AFTER I had already made that committment, as I'm almost positive the vast majority here did.

This "Don't teach the fish!" mentality is completely unrealistic. If the fish wanted to study, they'd already be here.

[gumpzilla]

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Granted they don't post as much on 2+2, but I'm not sure how that would make it different.

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Because the heat of the response is largely based on ZeeJustin and JJ being 2+2 celebrities.

As to the others, it sounds like you have quite a bit of evidence. I'll campaign with you for them getting tossed on their asses, and screw those guys. But, again, since this is 2+2 discussing it, I don't think those guys are going to draw the same kind of heat here.