good time for a combo bet v. a TAG? or do those bets not exist....

[spino1i]

[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I think two-way bets really cannot possibly exist. I mean, think about it. That's basically saying that he's going to behave irrationally. Because it means that he'll call some weaker hands in his range and fold some stronger hands in his range. He only has one hand range here. Maybe you know what it is and maybe you don't, but in truth he has some specific hand range here. And if you assume that he always sets some threshold within that range and calls with hands stronger than that threshold and folds hands weaker (which is rational, it's not rational to fold stronger hands than some hands you call with, right?) then it is impossible to have a two-way bet. Either there is a +EV segment of his hand range that he'll call and that you beat, or there isn't. If there is, it's a value bet, if there isn't, it's a bluff.

It only SEEMS like it's a two-way bet, because it's a thin value bet or a thin bluff and so sometimes it goes either way. But this is just randomness and if it works out the way you wanted it to, that's because you got LUCKY. It is completely impossible for two-way bets to exist if your opponent plays rationally. It only seems that way because you have no idea what you're doing because you dont' know his hand range and you dont know how he acts with each segment of it. So you throw a bet out there, hoping to get lucky, and when you do you call it a two-way bet.

- TWP

[/ QUOTE ]

Two-way bets can most certainly exist.

There might be a 2/3rds chance he calls with AA-JJ here, and 1/3rds chance he folds. There might be a 1/3rds chance he calls with AK/AQ and 2/3rds chance he folds.

Imagine he makes his decisions by a 6-sided die. If 1 or 2 is rolled, and he has AA-JJ, he folds. If he has 3-6 he calls. If he has AK/AQ, and a 1-4 is rolled he folds, and 5-6 rolls he calls.

Thats sort of what happens with the human mind. Noticed that he cant call with AK/AQ in situations where he wouldnt have called with AA-JJ (from other outside random circumstances or thoughts in his head). But that doesnt stop you from getting value from AK/AQ part of the time, and bluffing out AA-JJ part of the time.

Its sort of a strange way of "covering your bases" depending on how curious he is feeling. You get value when he is curious sometimes, and you get him to fold sometimes when he is feeling cautious. Because you can never know for sure how curious/cautious he is feeling at that exact moment in time, it is therefore based on random chance based on what you know of his temperment.

[DLizzle]

I agree with Strassa and other's with similar opinions, and I also have some more thoughts on 'two-way bets'. Say you have absolutely no read on this player, or at least you have no idea what he will do in this specific spot with any of the hands in his range. You think however that x% of players in this spot will call with worse, x% will fold better. You could say it's a two way bet of sorts because some of your opponents will fold a better hand, and some will call with worse. Does that make any sense at all or just nonsense?

[Jman28]

The reason the bet is good is becuase you're putting pressure on your opponent (keeping him from putting pressure on you) and making your range less polarized. It isn't to magically fold out better hands while getting value from worse hands.

That's my main problem, the way it's interepreted by some people because of its name.

It should be called a pressure bet.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason the bet is good is becuase you're putting pressure on your opponent (keeping him from putting pressure on you) and making your range less polarized. It isn't to magically fold out better hands while getting value from worse hands.

That's my main problem, the way it's interepreted by some people because of its name.

It should be called a pressure bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

yah i agree. An actual two-way bet comes up extremely rarely (i'd be surprised if i had >3 of them lifetime), and needs a pretty predictable/dumb opponent. I feel like some live pros might get a few of them/yr.

[durrrr]

i also think theres a different type of 2way bet... where you don't know the kindv player your playing against, however the kindv player to get to a spot w/ a weak 2p might fold, but the kindv player to get there w/ a strong overpair would call. I remember seeing spots like these come up, and not having the extremely narrow hand range that would justify a 2way bet... eventually tho

[DLizzle]

kinda what i was trying to say, i suck at writing

[kotkis]

Two-way bets vs. rational opponents don't exist.

[Ansky]

[ QUOTE ]
Two-way bets vs. rational opponents don't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya u def win the argument vs strass and durrr

[jackal47]

[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I think two-way bets really cannot possibly exist. I mean, think about it. That's basically saying that he's going to behave irrationally. Because it means that he'll call some weaker hands in his range and fold some stronger hands in his range. He only has one hand range here. Maybe you know what it is and maybe you don't, but in truth he has some specific hand range here. And if you assume that he always sets some threshold within that range and calls with hands stronger than that threshold and folds hands weaker (which is rational, it's not rational to fold stronger hands than some hands you call with, right?) then it is impossible to have a two-way bet. Either there is a +EV segment of his hand range that he'll call and that you beat, or there isn't. If there is, it's a value bet, if there isn't, it's a bluff.

It only SEEMS like it's a two-way bet, because it's a thin value bet or a thin bluff and so sometimes it goes either way. But this is just randomness and if it works out the way you wanted it to, that's because you got LUCKY. It is completely impossible for two-way bets to exist if your opponent plays rationally. It only seems that way because you have no idea what you're doing because you dont' know his hand range and you dont know how he acts with each segment of it. So you throw a bet out there, hoping to get lucky, and when you do you call it a two-way bet.

- TWP

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really good post, I strongly agree and couldn't describe it better myself.

[MDMA]

I firmly believe that the actual usage of "two way-bets" does not in fact exist. You have two ranges; your opponents and your own. The only thing of interest is the INTENTION of the bet, i.e what you consider the MAIN PURPOSE of your bet, the achieved effect you want. Because of this, you can only either valuebet, or bluff. You either bet for value, or you bluff, based on what you perceive to be your opponents calling range.

Yes, ranges DO overlap and thus hands that are within that overlapping range will create an illusion of two way bets, i.e when you bluff with your "best" bluffing hand and he calls with his worst calling hand, but that is purely an effect of overlapping; the INTENTION is still always just value or bluff.

The only exception would be rare circumstances where for example you assume that you in fact have an inferior betting range compared to his calling range, but where you can make a small bet that you feel will induce a bluff so often that what you make out of calling his checkraise bluff (or the like) is MORE than what you lose all those times the opponent simply calls you.

Thus, two way-bets only exists in terms of RESULT, not really as in terms of intention, and thus I really believe the whole usage of the term is pretty nonsensical.