What would you do about Virginia Tech?

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
I ran across this stat today, without even really looking. It's funny to me that I can find this stat without even looking to upport my position, but the rabid gun folks in all their wisdom have yet to show me anything from a reputable source to support theirs. Anyway, enjoy and ponder what could be.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=3048249


[ QUOTE ]
Gun crime is rare in Britain, and handguns are completely illegal. The ban is so strictly enforced that Britain's Olympic pistol shooting team is barred from practicing in its own country.

Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms was the lowest total since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded at least 579 homicides last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In the two years following the 1997 handgun ban, the use of handguns in crime rose by 40 percent, and the upward trend has continued. From April to November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose 53 percent.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Source
A little more current data
You were saying? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Borodog]

BCPVP, you are doing yoeman's work, pushing back the frontiers of fallacy in (at least) two forums. Bravo.

[tehox]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate the compliment. Formally it's not "you are really smart" but instead "you are very smart" since the definition of really is:

[ QUOTE ]
# truly: in accordance with truth or fact or reality; "she was now truly American"; "a genuinely open society"; "they don't really listen to us"
# actually: in actual fact; "to be nominally but not actually independent"; "no one actually saw the shark"; "large meteorites actually come from the asteroid belt"
# in truth: in fact (used as intensifiers or sentence modifiers); "in truth, moral decay hastened the decline of the Roman Empire"; "really, you shouldn't have done it"; "a truly awful book"

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean who would be dumb enough not to be able to see the correlation between suicidal maniacs killing several people, whether it be with a plane, a bomb, or a gun.

Explain how there's a difference?

[/ QUOTE ]


The difference is pretty clear IMO. You can use pretty much any object to kill someone. This has nothing to do with whether we should outlaw guns or not.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
You can use pretty much any object to kill someone. This has nothing to do with whether we should outlaw guns or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
It has everything to do with it.

[UATrewqaz]

I've read that both of the killer's guns had their serial numbers filed off...

I'm confused, isn't that illegal? I mean, we have laws on the books about guns and their serial numbers.

How could such a thing have happened... we definitely need more laws, only way to stop this.

[ QUOTE ]
You can use pretty much any object to kill someone. This has nothing to do with whether we should outlaw guns or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

When your primary argument for gun control is that "guns can be easily be used by maniacs or criminals to kill people" then it's very pertinent.

Sidebar:

A guy here at work who sits across from me, his gun saved him from getting mugged. Several years ago he was on MARTA (Atlanta's very crappy subway system) and carrying his laptop case. Three gentlemen approached him and started asking him about his bag and then basically demaned he hand it over. He said they began approaching him and he just quietly pulled out his gun remaining seated the whole time. The dudes bolted to the other side of the train and got off at the next exit.

He never said a word or moved. Pimp.

[Woolygimp]

Down here in Louisiana we have the Justifiable Homocide Law.
Basically, if someone breaks into your home, business, or vehicle you can kill them.

[ QUOTE ]
4) When committed by a person lawfully inside a dwelling, a place of business, or a motor vehicle as defined in R.S. 32:1(40), against a person who is attempting to make an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, or who has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, and the person committing the homicide reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the entry or to compel the intruder to leave the premises or motor vehicle. The homicide shall be justifiable even though the person committing the homicide does not retreat from the encounter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a whole lot of car thefts down here to be honest...
I'd say the majority of people (including me) leave our houses unlocked, and I live in the third largest city in Louisiana. You just don't see a lot of burglaries, because most people wouldn't have any qualms about shooting someone when their family/property are at stake.

Beats the hell out of waiting for the police.

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I ran across this stat today, without even really looking. It's funny to me that I can find this stat without even looking to upport my position, but the rabid gun folks in all their wisdom have yet to show me anything from a reputable source to support theirs. Anyway, enjoy and ponder what could be.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=3048249


[ QUOTE ]
Gun crime is rare in Britain, and handguns are completely illegal. The ban is so strictly enforced that Britain's Olympic pistol shooting team is barred from practicing in its own country.

Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms was the lowest total since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded at least 579 homicides last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In the two years following the 1997 handgun ban, the use of handguns in crime rose by 40 percent, and the upward trend has continued. From April to November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose 53 percent.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Source
A little more current data
You were saying? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. I'd like to see the "rabid" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] anti-gun nuts [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] attempt to rebut those statistics [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

On a related point, let's note that the nvironment in the U.K. technically isn't "lawless", since the country has plenty of laws, including increasing anti-gun laws and anti-knife laws. More accurately (or more literally), the populace has been increasingly lawless. Why might that be?

Could the rise in crime rates possibly be partially due to the fact that muggers or robbers have little reason to fear their intended targets (who are disarmed in advance)?

Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that the U.K. has an uncapped immigration policy, and that perhaps the burgeoning numbers of immigrants aren't assimilating all that well and that disproportionate numbers may be turning to crime? Is it remotely possible that uncapped immigration from North Africa and from the Middle East may not be such a great idea for the host country after all?

I don't have statistics on either point, but these are all pertinent questions to be asked and explored.

[tehox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can use pretty much any object to kill someone. This has nothing to do with whether we should outlaw guns or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

When your primary argument for gun control is that "guns can be easily be used by maniacs or criminals to kill people" then it's very pertinent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people have expressed quite well in this thread why they think it is good that guns are legal. And I agree with some of their arguments. I just think the argument that "someone once flew an airplane into a building, lets also outlaw airplanes", is an extremely unconvincing argument.

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you babbling about. I gave cites that show that Britain, gun free and all, has the highest crime rate of all industrialized countries.

So they have less hand gun murders and more crime over all. Could that be beacause criminals in the UK have nothing to fear from their victims. Amazing what that does to your rosey scenario.

NCAces


[/ QUOTE ]
Idaho has one of the lowest per capita violent crime rates of any state, with only a few states such as Utah and Vermont doing better. Every household that I’m aware of has a firearm. If you don’t happen to own one, no problem ( and no need to register ). Just buy one from the classified section of the local newspaper. Or just own your own business in a rural area, plenty of people offered me guns in lieu of money when they were short.

Outlawing guns through legislation won’t work, at least not around here. The last time a piece of legislation was considered to ban certain assault rifles, people here, just swarmed to gun shows and gun shops to buy whatever type of firearm was being considered for banishment from personal use.


Idaho Statesman personal ads

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you "BAN ALL GUNS NOW" people read what this poster is saying?

An entire state exists in relative peace and safety and has one of the highest rates of gun ownership. It's highly suggestive that violent crime is not only a product of gun availability.

[Woolygimp]

Drug-use is one of the primary factors in violent crime. Legalizing drugs would not fix it, but probably worsen the problem.

I speak from experience, because I've got several friends that do, or at one time have sold narcotics.