How did life begin?

[MidGe]

Phil,

Just found today.

I still think that whatever the number of steps and the difficulty of Abiogenesis, the sheers number of experiments (ie collision of molecules with molecules) makes it a really high probability if not a virtual certainty. Also I do not assume that life on earth is how it would evolve anywhere else. By definition of Evolution that is much less likely if not impossible.

Still the thing is the first replicator only...

Those are my understanding of the numbers involved. You may not grasp them the way I do.

Link to Telegraph (UK)

[dknightx]

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Sounds like you don't personally like the belief that Jesus visited the Americas, and based on that you're making a unilateral emotional decision not to consider them Christians.

Who is the "leader" of a denomination? If you're only talking about denominations with a single leader, then that's Catholicism and maybe some orthodox churches, but certainly not the Protestants. As for the Unitarians, well, I think you're way off the mark...

(This thread isn't useful for much else any more, and this topic isn't worth another thread - especially since it's been discussed.)

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by head of the religion, i meant anyone in that demonination who is in a position of leadership, be it a bishop, a deacon, a pastor, etc, etc. like i said, feel free to ask them, in my experience (ive talked to quite a few) most have said they do not consider mormonism as christianity.

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There are definitely plenty who accept Mormons as Christians. But you're being wiggly anyhow. You refused a definition of Christian, which is a strong indication of irrationality. So what did you mean? Do you mean that only people who meet certain criteria that can't be described are Christian? If so, then do you think all Baptists and Methodists and Catholics meet these criteria, and that no Mormons do?

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please point me to which demoniation considers mormonism christianity (honestly, i'd like to know which ones). And i didn't "refuse" a definition of christian, i just refused YOUR definition, because in your definition somehow mormons fall under the "christianity" umbrella. Its definitely arguable whether it does or not ... i'm not saying its impossible under some definitions of the word "christianity", but the leaders of most (if not all) major denominations do not consider mormonism as christianity. As for your last question, as i stated early, most major denominations consider other major denomiations as "christian" (except some do not consider catholics christians, but thats definitely a better debate than mormonism). Anyways, like i said, i don't mind being proven wrong, so if you know of a major denomination that approves of mormonism, i'd like to know what that is!

[almostbusto]

-dknightx

latter day saints believe Jesus Christ is their lord and savior. they believe in the bible. they are definitely christian by any reasonable definition of christianity. definitely not mainstream but the religion is based on the KJB (and other stuff).

whether or not other religions recognize them as such is irrelevant, but i am sure there are some that do. since there are thousands of flavors out there.

it sounds like you want to hear a major denomination endorse mormonism. thats like asking pepsi to endorse coke. they are both colas but very different varieties (at least in their minds).

mormons basically believe all religions are basically wrong, or only partially right in their beliefs. so to endorse them you have essentially claim that your own religion is faulty.

[MidGe]

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latter day saints believe Jesus Christ is their lord and savior. they believe in the bible. they are definitely christian by any reasonable definition of christianity. definitely not mainstream but the religion is based on the KJB (and other stuff).

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Indeed they are, and some of the nicer ones too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[siegfriedandroy]

none of them have any legitimate explanations for why life as we feel it currently exists. they will try to make u feel dumb, intollerantly criticize you in every possible manner, yet still fail to explain why all these 'prelife' elements existed. not even a crazy, foolish, nonsensical explanation. nothing. least nothing ive seen. and ive read everything presented. why is negran better than sklansk? maybe he's not, but sklanks still cant explain anything about why we exist.

[madnak]

Here's a good start.

[dknightx]

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Here's a good start.

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So for mormonism, sure, they may believe A, B, and C (whatever those are), but because they totally disregard D, and added E, F, and G (which are completely non-biblical) its really hard to argue whether or not they are christian, wouldnt you say? People keep bringing up the division between other denominations. The problem is, other denominations STILL CONSIDER the other denominations christian! they just disagree on certain details of interpretation (on usually less trivial matters). Mormonism, on the other hand, is not accepted by mainstream christianity. If you want to go by some definition of christianity that makes you comfortable, and then use that to say Mormons = Christians, then go for it, but who should decide what falls under christianity and what doesnt? hm i dont know, maybe christians?

Yes, even I can admit that in some definitions of the WORD christianity, Mormons may meet JUST THE CRITERIA in that definition, however like i have ask kindly in previous posts, please just ask the leaders of mainstream christianity what they think, not some group that consists of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. thanks

[dknightx]

madnak, from that same website, they ask the question as to whether Mormons are considered Christian or not. Here are they, and my comments point by point.

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) certainly regards itself as Christian. The Church leadership and membership believe that they represent the true Christian church which lost its way in the second century CE and was restored by Joseph Smith in 1830.

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I dont think calling yourself A means that you actually are A, i could be wrong though.

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Many dozens of other Restorationist denominations also regard themselves as the true descendents of the original Mormon church, the Church of Christ. They regard the LDS and other Mormon denominations as schismatic groups who have departed from the true faith.

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dont really have much to say on this one.

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Many conservative Christians consider most denominations in the Restorationist movement to be non-Christian. That is because the latter's beliefs in the nature of God, the Trinity, salvation, Heaven, Hell, the early Christian movement, etc. deviate so greatly from traditional conservative Protestant theology.

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this is more my point, but that you can probably add "Moderate Christians" to the beginning as well.

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Some liberal and mainline Christians consider the Mormon movement and its many dozens of denominations to be a legitimate part of Christianity, in spite of their many unique beliefs.

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Right, and I never said NO ONE considers mormons christians, just that most do not, and most christian leaders do not (but i'm sure there are a few)

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The Roman Catholic Church considers those Christian denominations other than themselves and Eastern Orthodoxy to be not "churches in the proper sense." However, their members are "incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the [Roman Catholic] Church." More details.

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So this one is a little bit trickier. The thing is, Catholics do not consider non-catholics as in the "correct" faith. So they basically group all Christian denominations + mormonism + jehovah witnesses, etc into the same group. So its not really fair to use this argument that say that Catholics consider Mormons Christians, because they do not, however, they regonize that there may be some mormons who "incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church." but im not catholic so i cant really speak too much about this point. What is interesting to note is that a lot of the main denominations argue whether or not Catholicism should even be considered Christianity ... but lets not go there.

[madnak]

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Right, and I never said NO ONE considers mormons christians, just that most do not, and most christian leaders do not (but i'm sure there are a few)

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Whoa. Did you just delete your post asking me to find one Christian leader (pastor, bishop, etc) who agrees that the LDS Church is a Christian church?

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So this one is a little bit trickier. The thing is, Catholics do not consider non-catholics as in the "correct" faith. So they basically group all Christian denominations + mormonism + jehovah witnesses, etc into the same group. So its not really fair to use this argument that say that Catholics consider Mormons Christians, because they do not, however, they regonize that there may be some mormons who "incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church." but im not catholic so i cant really speak too much about this point. What is interesting to note is that a lot of the main denominations argue whether or not Catholicism should even be considered Christianity ... but lets not go there.

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Gotta love semantics, huh? It's funny how you're immune to semantic arguments, but I'm supposed to accept yours.

Let's get semantic, though - the Catholic Church puts Mormonism into the same category as Baptism, Methodism, and orthodox churches. Roman Catholicism is the largest and most authoritative group that believe in Jesus Christ - drop them and Christianity is suddenly third place to Islam and Catholicism. But I guess since they don't dispute the LDS claim, they must not be Christians either. And I assume neither are Unitarians, or other demoninations that consistently consider Mormons to be Christians? It sounds like your definition of Christianity is "any group that hates Mormons."

I guess that makes me a Christian too...

[SitNHit]

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madnak, from that same website, they ask the question as to whether Mormons are considered Christian or not. Here are they, and my comments point by point.

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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) certainly regards itself as Christian. The Church leadership and membership believe that they represent the true Christian church which lost its way in the second century CE and was restored by Joseph Smith in 1830.

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I dont think calling yourself A means that you actually are A, i could be wrong though.

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Many dozens of other Restorationist denominations also regard themselves as the true descendents of the original Mormon church, the Church of Christ. They regard the LDS and other Mormon denominations as schismatic groups who have departed from the true faith.

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dont really have much to say on this one.

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Many conservative Christians consider most denominations in the Restorationist movement to be non-Christian. That is because the latter's beliefs in the nature of God, the Trinity, salvation, Heaven, Hell, the early Christian movement, etc. deviate so greatly from traditional conservative Protestant theology.

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this is more my point, but that you can probably add "Moderate Christians" to the beginning as well.

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Some liberal and mainline Christians consider the Mormon movement and its many dozens of denominations to be a legitimate part of Christianity, in spite of their many unique beliefs.

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Right, and I never said NO ONE considers mormons christians, just that most do not, and most christian leaders do not (but i'm sure there are a few)

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The Roman Catholic Church considers those Christian denominations other than themselves and Eastern Orthodoxy to be not "churches in the proper sense." However, their members are "incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the [Roman Catholic] Church." More details.

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So this one is a little bit trickier. The thing is, Catholics do not consider non-catholics as in the "correct" faith. So they basically group all Christian denominations + mormonism + jehovah witnesses, etc into the same group. So its not really fair to use this argument that say that Catholics consider Mormons Christians, because they do not, however, they regonize that there may be some mormons who "incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church." but im not catholic so i cant really speak too much about this point. What is interesting to note is that a lot of the main denominations argue whether or not Catholicism should even be considered Christianity ... but lets not go there.

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I love how you guys spend your time, cant imagine spending my existance trying to disprove, discredit, demean things that I don't believe in the first place.

If you spend all your time doing that then thats the type of person you will become, if church going people are brainwashed, so are those who believe in scienece and math only , based on the theory that you are what spend most of your time doing or believing.

If I were to hang around porno stars all day, read about porn, watch porn all the time, try to prove why porn is a good thing for society, I bet ill eventually come up with some kind of reasons cause thats all ive been spending my time doing and probably become obsessed etc and have such clouted judgement cause of my obsession and because of my obsession and choosing to explore that I would then alter my beliefs to allow me to feel good about doing that, like you guys.

Remember, its not good to be fanatical which I think alot of you obviously are.

I don't consider writing this wasting much time cause I am currently taking a [censored], just to show how I will be spending my time on this forum, i let you know that. Ill make my posts only when I [censored].

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