Need your opinion... Does this wife owe him more?

[Blarg]

Great post. I've known a lot of lady lawyers in my life, and most of them went onto the mommy track and cut their hours way back. In one medium-sized office I worked in, we had four female partners, none of whom would show up to work regularly.

This practice gives the lie to the "glass ceiling" myth, too. People who work less and are less reliable get the salaries they have earned, unless they get lucky, threaten to sue, etc.

[katyseagull]

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Parity is often talked about as a goal, but as long as either partner is taken for granted, equality will stay a buzzword.

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This brings up a topic that I've given a lot of thought to. I do not think it's possible to have equality in the sense that perhaps you are thinking. Roles are different for men and women, equality probably cannot happen for many couples. Now apparently some work it out quite well (for example, Mr.Mon and his wife) but I would guess they are the exception and not the norm.

[Blarg]

Some roles are biologically more fitting for one sex than another, but someone caring as much for their partner as their partner cares for them is possible. Pretty lucky, maybe.

[katyseagull]

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Some roles are biologically more fitting for one sex than another, but someone caring as much for their partner as their partner cares for them is possible. Pretty lucky, maybe.

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I totally agree that both partners should care about the feelings and welfare of the other. I think in this case you are very smart to point out that her actions, whether she means them to or not, reflect a lack of consideration and concern for her husband's efforts and his hopes and dreams for a secure future. On the other hand, as someone early on in this thread pointed out, he was sort of counting on her to be pulling in loads of cash which reflects a bit of greediness on his part doesn't it?


Btw, your posts in this thread have come very close to expressing the feelings of my friend, the husband. He would totally agree with you on so many points. However, he would probably take exception to your stance that her behavior is not loving. He would explain it more as her being lazy and fearful but not manipulative. I want to say that you are exactly right though, this guy was enormously supportive towards his wife and I know that he sacrificed a lot to see her through this thing.
So in many respects you speak very eloquently about the unfairness of the situation that he finds himself in.

[Blarg]

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On the other hand, as someone early on in this thread pointed out, he was sort of counting on her to be pulling in loads of cash which reflects a bit of greediness on his part doesn't it?


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Not necessarily. The story, I thought, was that it was their mutual goal both to go into debt over this and to have her develop a real career as a result. If she had no interest in law, or told him up front that she would not be interested in pursuing one of the better-paying aspects of lawyering, that would be another story.

As to the husband describing her as not necessarily less loving for renegging, well, he IS her husband, after all. What's he supposed to say? Saying anything else would be very hard for most guys to do, and pretty unlikely.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Parity is often talked about as a goal, but as long as either partner is taken for granted, equality will stay a buzzword.

[/ QUOTE ]


This brings up a topic that I've given a lot of thought to. I do not think it's possible to have equality in the sense that perhaps you are thinking. Roles are different for men and women, equality probably cannot happen for many couples. Now apparently some work it out quite well (for example, Mr.Mon and his wife) but I would guess they are the exception and not the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree we are the exception and not the norm, but among high earning couples we know, we're also more common than you think. But, we also know of many couples where the husband belittles the wife's career, even though she does or has the potential to earn many more times than he does. (One need look no further than my wife's first husband.) But that's a topic for a whole other thread that I may need to start.

Of course, I also found real estate so intellectually dulling that it drove me crazy with realizing it (my wife certainly noticed it), poker was too uncertain, and as a solution she got me to go back to school to become a high school physics teacher, which will also allow me to keep my end of the deal on the kid-rearing front. Now that at least provides some intellectual stimulation that I need. Not great money, but not as bad as you think from what I can tell, and I think of it as our way to contribute to the community while she earns the big bucks. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[katyseagull]

Great posts Mr.Mon! Thanks for sharing your perspective. You touched on something that has me curious.


[ QUOTE ]
And what's my wife's perspective on all this? She despises the sort of woman in the OP. She see's it all the time. The firm hires some bright new female associate, and it's only a matter of time until they quit or go part time, usually related to the issue of children. How they do that is the question, sometimes, they've earned the right to do it, but often, the women in question are just spoiled and lazy.

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Is it your opinion that it is mainly women who go into law and then flake out and quit or do guys do this too?

The reason I ask is that I happen to know quite a few women (well, I guess around 7) who have graduated from college and then decided not to stay in their field of study. It is a limited sample size but in my mind it is sort of significant. It's as if some women (and I'll count myself in this group) somehow separate the act of doing well in college with the act of settling on a career, like they are two distinct activities that don't have to be related to each other. I don't see this as much with the guys that I know.

I wonder how women got to be so indecisive or lack that drive...that drive that helped them do well in school but somehow disappeared on graduation?

[Blarg]

The not so well hidden fallback career of mom must have a lot to do with it.

[cgrohman]

If she said she would work for a corporate firm thats a whoel different story. I was under the impression from the OP that there was no prior discussion as to what job she would take.

[MrMon]

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Great posts Mr.Mon! Thanks for sharing your perspective. You touched on something that has me curious.


[ QUOTE ]
And what's my wife's perspective on all this? She despises the sort of woman in the OP. She see's it all the time. The firm hires some bright new female associate, and it's only a matter of time until they quit or go part time, usually related to the issue of children. How they do that is the question, sometimes, they've earned the right to do it, but often, the women in question are just spoiled and lazy.

[/ QUOTE ]


Is it your opinion that it is mainly women who go into law and then flake out and quit or do guys do this too?

The reason I ask is that I happen to know quite a few women (well, I guess around 7) who have graduated from college and then decided not to stay in their field of study. It is a limited sample size but in my mind it is sort of significant. It's as if some women (and I'll count myself in this group) somehow separate the act of doing well in college with the act of settling on a career, like they are two distinct activities that don't have to be related to each other. I don't see this as much with the guys that I know.

I wonder how women got to be so indecisive or lack that drive...that drive that helped them do well in school but somehow disappeared on graduation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've taken awhile to answer because I've really been thinking about the answer. And I'm not sure I have one that doesn't sound totally sexist, but I'll try.

First off, there is no universal answer, each situation is unique, but I think we can divide it into several broad categories. I think the easiest category are those women who are just like the men. They are driven to succeed just as much and want to play by the same rules. Note that they want to, but they don't always get to, for reasons we'll talk about in a minute. Most men fit into this category as well. Once they've chosen to enter the law, they usually stick with it or use it to leap to another position. There are many men who quit law, but move laterally into VP positions in companies. In some ways a law degree is the new MBA, it's a way to really leapfrog your way high into a company. But, the men almost never quit work entirely, or even slow down to part-time. And they certainly don't do so without good reason. I think this is in large part cultural, boys are always raised with the expectation they'll work, girls, not so much. More on this in a minute.

At the other end of the spectrum we have the kept women, the hausfraus, the June Cleavers. It's what we think of women when we think typical American post-war family. Girls go to school, college even, take some fluff job somewhere, are expected to work until they get married, and then work until the first baby comes along. These women have always had it in their mind that their main job will be as a mother. That's fine, up to a point. Because a subcategory of this crew is the mercenary, the golddigger. These are women, often of considerable talent, who have the makings of talented professionals, who pursue that education and career, but with no intention of actually making it their career. No, the main purpose of the career is to land the trophy husband, the man who is even more successful than she is, the one who can allow her to retire at 32, pop out a couple of kids, then spend the rest of her life "volunteering", when in reality she just wants to sit by the side of the pool, have the housekeeper do all the housework, and have the nanny take care of the kids. These are also women who get dumped for the trophy wife when they get a little too fat, shrewish, or just wrinkly. Along the way they wreak destruction by taking up prized spots in business, law, and medical schools so they can gain access to those trophy husbands. They then wreak havoc among the organizations they "volunteer" for, because what they really want to do is be in charge while someone else does the work, just like their marriage. It's a cushy life, and these women are the worst of the worst. I can't stand them.

In between are women who by circumstance, are forced to be less than career women. Their situation is in common, but their circumstances are not. Sometime they volunteer for the role while fully intending to go back to work, but they never do. That can happen, and I don't hold it against them, though they are often frustrated themselves. There are those unfortunate career women who are forced to quit by their husbands, because it's a woman's job to take care of the home and raise the kids, never mind that she could be earning 4x what he does. There are mommytrackers who really are just slowing down because it's too hard to work full time and be in charge of the kids and a nanny is out of the question either because of expense or you don't like the idea. I've got a lot of respect for these women (and guys as well, I know a few besides myself), because they are intending to go back and use what they learned. Or there are some who just permanently mommytrack either because they don't feel like killing themselves after doing so for several years and want a balanced life, which is fine. And then there are those who do it because they can get away with it.

This last group is related to all the others because of culture. Let's face it, women are caught in a bunch of conflicts, but sometimes they use those conflicts to get away with stuff no guy could possibly get away with. There are those who say children do best with fulltime mothers, there are those who say women do best with mothers who have fulfilling lives outside the home, there are those who say women are always the second income, even if they earn more, there are even those who say women aren't up to the job. In almost all of these cases, the cultural message is, work is optional. Guys never hear that message growing up, and as a consequence, they rarely take that route. Women hear a different message and often do take a really, really unattractive route.

The one thing my wife does, as do her friends that are like her, is tell their daughters never define yourself by a man. Be independent, have a career, do not allow yourself to be trapped by money by being dependent. You might have to make compromises along the way, but making compromises is far different from being subservient or manipulative. (Manipulative women are far worse than subservient ones in my book.) Not all girls hear this message, they hear the other messages, and that's why we have the results we do in the workplace, and why so many women start out as equals, but end up with far different results. We demand they do, we expect them to, or we allow them to have different career paths, some not so attractive and actually detrimental to those women who have serious careers. It takes a strong woman to say they want what the boys want and I don't expect we ever will be at the point where they are exactly the same. But we might see more options open up on the boy side, which would be a good thing.