Live 25-50, big decision with bottom 2

[B-Man]

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I disagree for a lot of reasons, but I think it comes down to this:

I agree 84o is a terrible hand, but many of the biggest pots I have ever won have been with terrible starting hands that flopped well-disguised hands (like 2-pair).



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I'm not sure if you're talking about this hand, but your 2 pair hand was not at all well disguised. Whenever a blind checkraises I assume that a random 2 pair (SB or BB special) is in their range. You pretty much defined your hand by checkraising here, but the guy you stacked happens to be a donkey who can't read hands/lay down aces. How could he push all-in after a bet, a call, and a CR out of the blinds? Clearly the guy sucks.

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I meant in general. In this case I agree with you. Btw, a lot of times I will lead out with 2-pair, in this case I did not. And yes, this guy is a donkey for playing it like he did. If it weren't for the other info he gave me, I would have folded.


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At least you practice good game selection.

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I try. I'm don't play for ego, or the thrill of beating a great player. I play to win money. I would much rather play against a bunch of donks than good players.


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This is not at all true assuming competent players. If you are playing against clueless calling stations who will not fold any pair, then your analysis makes more sense.

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I agree, but as I said, against a solid player I would have folded pretty quickly. There are a lot of donks out there...

[Spladle]

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you know one day you and this fish are gonna be sittin with 50k each with another 50k fish on your left. folds to him on button. he limps. you fold 84 and watch as the flop comes 888AK and fish and super fish get 1000bbs in the middle each while you try to bash your brains open with a handful of black chips as they show their cleverly slowplayed AA and KK

yea, i'd just call to be sure that never happened. no other reason really

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In a deep-stacked game I wouldn't say a goddam word about pre-flop play. But here the stacks are only about 15 pots deep. That's not really deep enough to be playing any two OOP against the entire field imho.

[Jazzy3113]

how about comments on the villians play...obv he was going for a limp reraise, but isnt his post flop play atrocious?
8 people see the flop..a bet, a call, then a large raise and he goes all in
maybe i am missing something, but i think once he couldnt reraise AA preflop he should procees with extreme caution postflop....gutsy call with bottom 2 but i guess there was alot in the pot

[JasonP530]

I realized after i typed that that scenario was about even EV. My point was that even those optomistic numbers make it about even, and the reality is that he is much more likely to NOT have AA/KK and to have top two or a set.

[Andruin]

Am I the only one that doesn't like the played lines of the hand at all?

1. 84o sorry but I don't complete this even if 6 are already in just because of the reasons you are posting here. Unless you flop a Boat it is always a very difficult decision and most of the time you just wasted a SB out of postition. Especially when you play outside your usual limit to get one special player. What I have seen about Jamie Gold is that he is exactly playing this kind of hands you are playing here. You want his money? Play better than him.

2. Check raise BTP in a 8 handed flop with flush and straight draws possible isn't my choice at all. Define your hand and bet and fold to a reraise.

3. Now you reraise the bettor without a solid strategy when he pushes all in. Now the ugly reality of playing 84o hits you hard.

Given the information you are providing we have an agressive player limping UTG and besides a marginal 44, an 88, a very badly played TT or a trapped AA I don't see much that valids an UTG call that isn't a draw at this flop texture. Given this I tend to call this with a huge headache.

[SanchoHH]

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do people really not complete the SB with any 2 after 98 limpers in a live game? i can't imagine the looks you get if you fold pf here and how that affects your table image.

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Probably depends on who you are playing against. If it happens to be Barry Greenstein, this fold will tell him that you have some kind of clue. At least that's what he said on Live At The Bike. So you might level him here by "bluff-completing" od "bluff-folding" depending on what image you want [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[lennytheduck]

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how about comments on the villians play...obv he was going for a limp reraise, but isnt his post flop play atrocious?
8 people see the flop..a bet, a call, then a large raise and he goes all in
maybe i am missing something, but i think once he couldnt reraise AA preflop he should procees with extreme caution postflop....gutsy call with bottom 2 but i guess there was alot in the pot

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Groundbreaking stuff.

[JasonP530]

So you have an even EV situation when you call. Now if you put 1800 in there and then lay down any reasonable percentage of the time, then that shifts the EV of all the scenarios clearly negative b/c there is no way you are winning 1800 other times to compensate for that.

-Jason

[MYNAMEIZGREG]

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I think that it is prob a call at this point since you are getting 2-1, but you areplaying above your normal level so if you want to reduce variance i dont think you are givig away too much EV by folding. Also since this is such a close situation i think you need to give a bit more info.

Which are the hearts on the board? not a huge deal but if you have something like 8h4c then you can rule out an Ah8h type hand. Has the game been passive with a lot of limpers? would someone open limp with with a suited T8? again factor in the suits you have and one on board as there may be only one possible suited T8. How the game has played thus far might also give you more insight into the likelyhood of limping with TT since that is the most set. I dont think AA or KK would limp and then check flop to make a huge push after a CR, so i dont think those should factor into villains range. A read on the other players would also be helpful as it might let you eliminate one T, making 3 possible combintions for sets, or to believe that 2 flush outs are dead. Not that this makes a huge difference but in a close situation like this every bit counts.

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I liked that post and it made me think about things that I don't normally consider.

[spyu]

He has a flush draw