Phil Ivey Gossip

[Pudge714]

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So basically what happened here was that the hustlers got hustled and then cried about it like babies?

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They didn't attempt to hustle Ivey. Taking what you percieve do be a massively +EV waged != hustling.

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Presumably then, by your definition Ivey didn't hustle them either?

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No. Intentionally misrepresenting yourself is hustling. That being said I have no idea about the ethics and conventions of high stakes golf betting.

[ed8383]

I don't understand the shock by all you people. Ivey is a poker player, taking people's money is his job. You people make Ivey out to be like mother teresa when we all know most poker players would hustle their grandma if they could.

[Devil Duq]

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I really don't know (haven't played enough golf), but it seems that people are asserting that it is grounds for not paying up. Again, I think it depends on the context of the gambling and the friendships of the players.

I do think that if someone lies about his handicap, then refuses to renegotiate when you become aware of it, he ain't yo friend.

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Shaniac,

You say you don't know much about gambling in golf, and that's fair enough. Typically, however, if you are engaged in a match with a player to whom you've given strokes, and it becomes apparent after a few holes that the spot was overly generous (this happens for numerous reasons, not all of them as the result of "sandbagging"), then an adjustment is generally made, usually after 9 holes. This adjustment is intended to reduce the effectiveness of the sandbagging ploy.

As to whether or not a negotation of this nature ever occured -- as you've said, we will likely never know the unvarnished truth of the situation, since the OP is a standard piece of hearsay. What seems clear, however, is if an aggrieved player storms off the course after 7 holes, he forfeits his right to any such relief.

Should the winning player refuse to agree to such an adjustment when requested, then the bet can certainly be cancelled going forward -- but refusing to pay up existing debt is simply not an option. Otherwise, one treats perceived dishonor with actual dishonor.

As to what "a friend" would or would not do, here's what I gleaned from the OP: Mr. Goodwin appears to be some kind of celebrity-sniffing sycophant that considered himself Ivey's "friend" primarily because Goodwin had been taking Phil down for serious cash on the golf course. There's at least a reasonable chance that Phil realized the extent of their "friendship", and treated Goodwin accordingly.

BTW, since I can speak directly to you via this forum, let me say that you author one of the most literate pro player blogs I've thus far encountered. Congrats and keep up the fine work.

No, I don't want to borrow money from you.

[Mike_Hunt]

I average about a 90-95 nearly every time I play. Last year I played about 40 rounds of golf, and my score was between 90-95 35 of those times.

But I did have a high score of 99 and a low of 82. Simply put, I had one awesome round, but I am normally very steady.

Ivey could have had that round on that given day. It happens.

[sandycove]

I am sceptical.

If Phil Ivey has managed to tame the disorderly slash I saw on television and has developed a short game that will support anything in the neighbourhood of a legitimate USGA 13 handicap index, under pressure – well, that Pavin thread is a whole new ballgame.

Not that it can’t be done (I’ve seen miracles happen), given some fundamental ability, a creative teaching professional and about six months fierce and focused and supervised effort.

As far as the alleged bet is concerned, whatever this was, it wasn’t some country club Nassau conducted under the strict rules of golf (not that one American golfer in a hundred knows them, much less conforms to them). I presume these lads share some notion of a gambler’s code and that the result will be sorted out in one way or another – they’ll all want to play golf for money in the future and, at these stakes, the field is pretty thin.

[wisehandpoker]

The sense I've always gotten is that amongst poker pros, golf handicaps are heavily guarded and hidden. They constantly try to gain the advantage on one another in golf games by misrepresenting. I asked Phil Gordon what his golf handicap was at the series and he looked at me like I'd asked for his social security number.

[New2NL]

OBV TRICK COACHING

[shaniac]

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You say you don't know much about gambling in golf, and that's fair enough. Typically, however, if you are engaged in a match with a player to whom you've given strokes, and it becomes apparent after a few holes that the spot was overly generous (this happens for numerous reasons, not all of them as the result of "sandbagging"), then an adjustment is generally made, usually after 9 holes. This adjustment is intended to reduce the effectiveness of the sandbagging ploy.

As to whether or not a negotation of this nature ever occured -- as you've said, we will likely never know the unvarnished truth of the situation, since the OP is a standard piece of hearsay. What seems clear, however, is if an aggrieved player storms off the course after 7 holes, he forfeits his right to any such relief.

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My understanding of the dialogue that occured is this:

Erik123 (after howvever many holes on the San Diego course): Phil, you lied to us, this is BS. I will pay you what I owe and we will quit.

Phil: No, you have to play it out, or pay a 100K penalty.

Essentially, I think Ivey refused to adjust, but I don't think Erik refused to pay. And yeah, despite this being heresay, we can get a sense of the flavor of these negotiations.

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As to what "a friend" would or would not do, here's what I gleaned from the OP: Mr. Goodwin appears to be some kind of celebrity-sniffing sycophant that considered himself Ivey's "friend" primarily because Goodwin had been taking Phil down for serious cash on the golf course. There's at least a reasonable chance that Phil realized the extent of their "friendship", and treated Goodwin accordingly.


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This is probably accurate, except that I think you could replace Goodwin's name with many others in both senses: There are people who consider themselves friends of Phil, but whom he'd happily "hustle," and there are also probably plenty of people who are "friends" with Phil, because of his star power and its generic appeal. Either way (and it actually kind of reminds of the way Don't Look Back depicted Bob Dylan's early, booming career), it wouldn't be surprising if Ivey was somewhat cold, widely distrustful/guarded, and ruthlessly ambitious.

There's nothing really wrong with any of that, and I don't even try to place an ethical calculation on any of this, although it is worth being aware of. These discussions are rooted in heresay and conjecture, but it sure is fun sitting here playing armchair psychologists and guessing at peoples' true motives/nature.

(and thanks a million for the compliment to my blog; keep reading and I'll try to keep writing)

[SuperUberBob]

Ivey probably didn't hustle them, at least not in a very extreme manner. Massive -EV in the long run if he gets a reputation as being a scumbag when it comes to this.

[shaniac]

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Ivey probably didn't hustle them, at least not in a very extreme manner. Massive -EV in the long run if he gets a reputation as being a scumbag when it comes to this.

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Hm..let's take a leap of logic here and assume that Phil factors this into his EV calculations. Let's further assume that people will always find multiple ways of interpreting these stories and give Phil the benefit of the doubt regardless, and that there are others who chalk it up to being "all part of the game" and still gamble with him. There is no shortage of poker people willing to take -EV side gambles.

There are also random people, outsiders enamored of celebrity in general and Phil--who really does have an aura about him--specifically, who will always be willing to take the worst of it against Phil on the golf course or anywhere. A lot of people have heard stories about Kasey (Casey?), the Allin Magazine guy, who squandered untold fortunes for nothing more than the privilege of hanging out with poker pros.

I'm sure Bill Clinton could hustle people all day long on the golf course, too, and not worry about the damage to his reputation or his ability to get future action. Actually, I think Bubba charges 6-figs for fat cats who want to play a round of golf with him, and maybe Phil should start doing that, too.