Did I play this one correctly?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Why c/c with the nuts? I understand checking if you're going for a c/r after putting him on a low draw, but I don't understand check calling to get a free card when you have the "turn nuts."

[/ QUOTE ]4ever - I understand you're disagreeing with me, but you've asked a very good question.

And this is the thing about limit-Omaha-8. Unless you have the stone cold unbeatable nuts, it's not over until the river. You cannot protect a flopped set when someone raises your flop bet.

If you could make a pot sized raise, maybe you could protect your flopped set against some draws, but it's going to usually come down to whether a straight or flush in the hands of your opponent will win or your full house or quads will win.

In this particular case there are two wheel cards on the flop. With four high cards in Hero's hand, low is very likely. Somebody with the nut low, or even just two non-paired cards in the two to six or ace to five range is close to free-rolling Hero.

What kind of a hand is worth a raise here? (Hero already has top set, so Villain can't have that). Think about it. It's very scary. I actually chose a couple of what I thought were logical hands for the raise and simulated. Hero was a big underdog. Having no low draw after this flop is a big disadvantage.

At any rate, back to your excellent question: You can flop the nuts in Omaha-8 and still be the underdog. And although Hero can't know it for certain while he's playing the hand, because he cannot see Villain's cards, I think Hero probably is the underdog to someone who raises him after this particular flop.

That's part of the irony of Omaha-8. You can flop the nuts and still be the under-dog. Happens all the time!

Buzz

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you think AQQJ is a marginal hand?

[/ QUOTE ]Piocet - I think AsQhQcJc is a marginal starting hand in Omha-8 because it misses too many flops and doesn't go on to become a winner often enough when it does connect to the flop (as here).

Your question is better than my unpithy, generalized answer.

If the ace, instead of the queen, was suited to the jack (or if the ace was suited to the queen), then I'd think the hand was playable from all positions as a starting hand. In other words, in my humble opinion, this hand needs a suited ace to be better than marginal.

As a rainbow hand, without even the queen suited to the jack, I'd think AQQJ was less than marginal. Better folded.

But the way things are, I think AsQhQcJc as a starting hand is marginal. What I mean by marginal is the hand is in the gray area between playable and foldable.

What to do depends a lot on the particular game and opponents, but in general, I’m going to probably play starting hands I think are “marginal” when I’m on the button. I’m also going to generally complete for a half bet from the small blind with “marginal starting hands.” I’m also going to generally defend the big blind with “marginal” starting hands. I might play them other times, for example if I hadn’t played a hand for a while and didn’t like the effect I thought that might be having on my table image. (Poker is a game of deception).

You may not fully appreciate not playing hands with a pair of queens until, for the most part, you stop playing them. And then you'll feel good when you fold the queens and watch how you would have lost with them.

If you run a series of simulations that includes this hand, although this hand will win more than average against eight random hands, it doesn't win as much more as many various other hands will. In other words it doesn’t have as good prospects as many other starting hands.

I realize that various well respected authors advise you can play any hand with four cards above ten, or something of the sort. But rightly or wrongly, I disagree. I think you get stuck with many hands containing four cards above ten. My basis is actual playing experience and simulations.

Some think you can easily get away from hands with all cards above a ten spot after the flop. But if the flop has a queen, as here, it's not so easy to get away from after all. And then if the board doesn't pair on the turn or river, you'll most often be looking down the barrel of a bet from someone with a very logical possible straight, just as happened here.

Poor Steamboatin did take a bad beat this time - after one of the worst possible cards on the river. Steamboatin had no luck at all here. Tough and discouraging. But it goes with the territory when you play a starting hand with a pair of queens. When they don't improve (by the board pairing), then at the showdown there overwhelmingly will be a flush or a straight possible - usually more than one.

At a typically loose limit table, when somebody indicates strength on the flop (as with a raise), I think you treat a flopped set of queens as a drawing hand, needing the board to pair to have a probable winner. Hero can take a stab at the pot after he flops the set of queens, but then when someone plays back, in a limit game, I think Hero needs to back off. In a limit game, Hero can't realistically knock a good straight draw out of the pot, especially if the hand with the straight draw also has a low or a low draw. That’s just the way it is.

[ QUOTE ]
Given the situation, unraised pot and 4 players to the flop, I think complete is a no-brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree hero should complete.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, hero is underdog against A45, but I wouldn't put UTG+1 on that just because he raised. Not yet.

[/ QUOTE ]Me neither. But I'd be very wary of the possibility.

[ QUOTE ]
I would definately continue betting when the safe turn card hit.

[/ QUOTE ]The ten at first looks like a good card for Hero. Villain doesn't make low and no straight or flush is yet enabled. However, after the ten, there are only 13 cards that help Hero. All the other 31 cards possibly help Villain in some way or other. (Of course, Villain can't have everything, so Hero should stay in the hand, even when he doesn’t improve).

My best guess would be that Villain's 2nd round raise was a semi-bluff. He probably simply has good prospects after this flop. Nobody can use all three cards in this flop to make a straight or better for high, or an eight or better low. But that can all change on the very next card, or if not then, on the river. I honestly think if we could see Villain’s cards, we could see that Villain actually is the favorite, in spite of the fact that Hero has the current nuts after the flop and also after the turn.

Buzz

[steamboatin]

Here is the raw hand history. It was easy to find, in 2700+ hands I have played aqqj twice.

STAGE #541033886: OMAHA HI/LO NORMAL $2/$4 - 2007-01-10 16:26:47 (ET)
Table: CASPIAN ST. (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - BRUTUS51 ($167.67 in chips)
Seat 2 - Hero ($24.79 in chips)
Seat 3 - JULIEFPC ($36 in chips)
Seat 4 - BONDS444LIFE ($37.38 in chips)
Seat 5 - MRKNISH ($68.75 in chips)
Seat 6 - BEN BROKER ($85.76 in chips)
Seat 7 - HAPPYMEALS ($108.25 in chips)
Seat 8 - DOCTORTOOTH ($85.39 in chips)
Seat 9 - OGRE_AK ($74.52 in chips)
Hero - Posts small blind $1
JULIEFPC - Posts big blind $2
OGRE_AK - sitout (wait for BB)
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to hero [Jc Qh As Qc]
BONDS444LIFE - Folds
MRKNISH - Calls $2
BEN BROKER - Calls $2
HAPPYMEALS - Folds
DOCTORTOOTH - Folds
BRUTUS51 - Folds
HERO - Calls $1
JULIEFPC - Checks
*** FLOP *** [2h Qd 3s]
Hero - Bets $2
JULIEFPC - Folds
MRKNISH - Raises $4 to $4
BEN BROKER - Folds
Hero - Raises $4 to $6
MRKNISH - Calls $2
*** TURN *** [2h Qd 3s] [10s]
Hero - Bets $4
MRKNISH - Calls $4
*** RIVER *** [2h Qd 3s 10s] [Ac]
Hero - Checks
MRKNISH - Bets $4
Hero - Calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MRKNISH - Shows [Ah 4d 5d 3d] (Straight, ace to five)
Hero - Mucks
MRKNISH Collects $34.25 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($36) | Rake ($1.75)
Board [2h Qd 3s 10s Ac]
Seat 1: BRUTUS51 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: Hero (small blind) HI: [Mucked] [Jc Qh As Qc]
Seat 3: JULIEFPC (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 4: BONDS444LIFE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: MRKNISH won Total ($34.25) HI$17.13) with Straight, ace to five [Ah 4d 5d 3d - P:5d,P:4d,B:3s,B:2h,B:Ac] LO$17.12) [B:Ac,B:2h,B:3s,P:4d,P:5d]
Seat 6: BEN BROKER Folded on the FLOP
Seat 7: HAPPYMEALS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: DOCTORTOOTH Folded on the POCKET CARDS

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
My thought was I am in the lead either set over set or set over draw. I wanted to charge him to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]Steamboatin - Sounds reasonable, and you did that when you made your original bet.

But then when Villain raised, although you should have thought the raise a semi-bluff, the ironic thing about Omaha-8 is somebody semi-bluffing is often the favorite.

(That makes semi-bluffing in Omaha-8 very correct under many, perhaps most circumstances. You don't have as good a chance to win the pot as in Texas hold 'em, but you might actually be the favorite!)

Your hand greatly suffers with no low prospects after this two-wheel-card flop.

That ace was a particularly cruel river card. Ouch! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Buzz

[steamboatin]

I don't care about the results. I just want to play the hand correctly.

[wackjob]

if you hit the turn and still have the nut set w/no lo out yet, then is a good time to charge draws. on the flop, you cannot make him fold or give him the wrong odds to fold, charge him on the big streets, and then your river play is all you can do.

[1MoreFish4U]

I think Buzz has got this one nailed. Oh yeah, one other thing...Mr Knish is a luckbox lol.

Seriously, with Villain's hand I would have played it just the way he did. For that reason I would have expected that the way you played yours, you either had the same hand as Villain, or the hand you actually held.