Please list PokerStars complaints

[William]

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You need solid marketing, affiliate programs and regular new player signups to get lots of fish in. Not HORSE and FPPs.

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Players have been saying this forever. I'm not sure what they talk about in their board meetings when this subject comes up but I can't think of any good reasons to not up their affiliate program. Are things like the aston martin, 2.5 moneymaker millions, and vip free rolls really going to bring in more money then a strong affiliate program?

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You can't think of any good reason?
How about them wetting their pants thinking if they are going to be arrested next time they put a foot in the USA?
Don't you think all the sites that still accept americans are waiting to see what happens when the 270 days have passed? If the govt intends to do something, who do you think they will first go after, the site that advertises or the one that keeps quiet?
Nothing is going to happen before summer next year and probably nothing will happen after that either. Stars makes millions a day, pay no taxes (or an insignificant amount if any) and to the owners is not a question of surviving but only of racking as much as possible. If they have to close so be it, they have enough cash for the next 30 generations right? So it must be obvious that for the moment the plan must be to keep happy the 5/10.000 nits they have, those that pay rake at 8/12 tables simultaniously, and avoid extra expenses and risks until the situation has been clarified.
The games stink, they know it but why should they care? They make millions a day as it is, 1 or 2 more is not going to make any difference to them and they rather stay out of trouble for as long as possible.

You are all so desperate about the fish disappearing, the games getting horrible that you refuse to see things as they really are.

Yes, the lack of fish is bad, the non-advertising policy is bad, the aids they allow are bad, but that's what they have got and from that they make millions a day. If you had trizillions in the bank and could keep making the kind of money they make for as long as posssible or risk to be shut down for trying to do what is best for the players, what would you chose?

Can't think of any good reason? Seems to me that you are in total denial (you in general).

[Ali shmali]

william,

your points fall short. Pokerstars has been around for much longer then a year. You'll notice party poker is still a top 3 site and has zero risk involved in matters of U.S. litigation(as far as i can tell at least). This is due to their aggressive affiliate program.

Another reason your point falls short is because Pokerstars currently DOES have an affiliate program and these affiliates currently advertise to Americans anyways. They are also the number one site right now with the majority of their business in the U.S. If the hammer of the U.S. authorities does decide to come crashing down, it will happen regardless of Pokerstars' affiliate program.

The one thing that does make sense to me, is that they don't feel the need to push in more money with the current political climate. That area seems pretty grey though. There is a chance the bill's enforcement will be negligable. If so, how much money are they losing by not having a good marketing campaign? If the enforcement does end up being strict, how much money are they losing by having a good affiliate campaign?

I'm going to guess it is still in their best interest to have an aggressive marketing program. It will not only bring in more U.S. customers, but more non-U.S. customers. That seems like a win-win situation to me.

[Phil153]

William,

You're way off base here. The main points are:

- They were exactly the same before the US situation.
- They spend [censored] all advertising in Europe and elsewhere
- They have a [censored] affiliate program, which means no one goes out of their way to promote PokerStars over say, Full Tilt. It also means that few non gambling websites have an incentive to promote PokerStars aggressively.

This has nothing to do with the legislation, and everything to do with their business practices. They hang onto their money like, well, you know, and hurt both their business and the online poker world by doing so.

[William]

Ali,

Poker sites advertise a lot in Europe, but over here, poker is still considered as something you should not be doing. There is also a poker boom, but poker players are not "celebrities" like in the states.

It is important to understand that the online gaming business as it is today is doomed to fail. The internet is a new market, with no regulations, legislations, etc... Because it is global, it is very difficult to regulate but with the sums of money involved (the ones that the sites are making and not paying taxes on) it is IMPOSSIBLE that the actual situation can survive for too long. Govt. are slow in matters like this, but when the engine starts rolling, there is no way to stop it. The sites, no matter how big, wealthy or old they are know all this. They were the pioneers of this golden niche and have made much money out of it, but as it should be, society wants its share (where do you think the good things in life come from if you don't pay taxes) and soon it must be over. Maybe sites will be allowed to continue if they are made legal, become state regulated and pay taxes or maybe the gvt itself will have their own sites. That would be the best for the players as it would remove any doubt about the integrity of the online sites. Maybe it will be all over, I don't know. Gambling has always done more harm than good to society and it is not a few thousand people that are smarter at the game than the rest of the population that are going to change that.

I understand this causes a lot of distress to many people in here (me included) as it is always difficult to accept that the golden goose has been slaughtered and that those nice golden eggs will not be around anymore, but refusing to see reality as it truly is, is just childish.

We can all see how horrible games have become. This happened practically overnight. Yes, I know that there are some super duper good players in comparison to whom we are all fishies and they will probably allways manage, but for the rest of the daily grinders (most of us) our way of life has changed radically and it is impossible to make long term plans concerning online poker.

The poker boom we have lived the past few years is not all good. Of course it is good that more people are playing, but not all are fishies, some learn and make it more difficult for the rest of us. There is a thin line that separates "enough" from "too much" and I believe that we have crossed that line (from the players point of view of course. Too much doesn't exist for the sites). As I said, the really good ones will survive, but all of those that just needed to find a table (or 12) full of players worst than themselves are going to have a very hard time. The fish/shark ratio is just not what it has been anymore.

Sites like this one have also contributed to the situation we find ourselves in. Great when it helps you to become a better player, but how about the 250.000 other? Today players are educated everywhere, books, television commercials (yes, here a site gives one advice a week on a television add; be agressive, beware of the rock, how to play against the maniac, etc... all clearly demonstrated at the table, with babes, known actors, etc... ) Good for them as it attracts more players, fish to begin with, but we are not all idiots, and too many learn and find out that it is very nice to make a living playing half naked from your living room.

Poker like anything else becomes hard when it becomes too popular and too many people play it. If on top of that the gvt does all it can to stop it....

But again, it is easy to refuse to accept reality.

The guy that falls from the 100th floor of a building also things "all's well so far" when he passes by the 50th floor....

[William]

Phil,

Winning players and the few addicts will always find their way to the tables. The problem is Mr. "I have a nice job and want to donate a few hundreds 3 times a week". Those players are the ones that respond to the commercials and advertising in the USA has becommed too risky for a business that earns way too much from it's regulars.
I know Europe is targetted like crazy right now, but over here the mentality is different and you will never populate online poker sites with european fishies (or at least I don't think so).

So the question remains why should Stars (or any other site) take any risks (I know you think "prison" it won't happen, but they surely think otherwise as if it happens, it happens to them) when they are doing great as they currently operate and may be able to do it for some time if they keep a low profile?

The fact remains that games are horrible, it's been 3 months now and so far, nothing indicates that things will change.

[Phil153]

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the USA has becommed too risky for a business that earns way too much from it's regulars.....So the question remains why should Stars (or any other site) take any risks

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William, do you work for Stars or something? You didn't address any of my points. Let them restate them for you.

<font color="blue">- They were exactly the same before the US situation.</font>

So none of the arguments you make are the real reasons for their business model.

<font color="blue">- They spend [censored] all advertising in Europe and elsewhere</font>

Have you played at Party lately? Have you looked at their revenue from non US customers? It's pretty damn impressive, and climbing rapidly. There is a lot of money and ample fish in Europe with ZERO risk for PokerStars. They are not doing enough to target these players. Once again Party leaves them in the dust.

<font color="blue">- They have a [censored] affiliate program, which means no one goes out of their way to promote PokerStars over say, Full Tilt. It also means that few non gambling websites have an incentive to promote PokerStars aggressively.</font>

This is a key point. If they were worried about the US threat, they wouldn't still be PAYING AFFILIATES FOR US SIGNUPS, would they? How exactly does paying a percentage of player MGR, as opposed to one off fee, put them at more risk from the legislation?

In short, the Stars business model hasn't changed at all as a result of this legislation. It stank before and it stinks now.

[William]

They were exactly the same before the US situation.

Well, the problem is with the USA players right? and it may be risky to advertise to attract them. So maybe they just chose to receive whatever % of Party nits moves to Stars and leave it at that. It's not like they are struggling to survive, and they may chose to hold a low profile (yes, also outside of the USA because even if the USA is the first to do something against online gambling, the threat is in the air everywhere) until things settle down. They make tons of money already, so what do they care if all the tags are crying for extra fishies, they keep playing and paying rake all the same, don't they?



They spend [censored] all advertising in Europe and elsewhere

Stars do advertise in Europe. And Party having lost 90% of its customers, don't you find it normal that they are more agressive than other sites in new markets?



They have a [censored] affiliate program, which means no one goes out of their way to promote PokerStars over say, Full Tilt. It also means that few non gambling websites have an incentive to promote PokerStars aggressively.

It seems to me that they are doing just fine the way they operate. From their point of view of course, which believe it or not is not the same as the players point of view, especially the nits.
Just my opinion of course, you could try asking them, but I doubt you will get an honest answer.

People in this forum only think about what they want (it's ok as well, if you don't ask you don't get) but perhaps it would be a good idea to try to figure out what the site best interest is (yes, Lee will allways post that they want to please the customer and all that BS, but that is only lower in the priority list, first of all it's their pockets they think of). You may not like what you find out, but refusing to admit it won't solve the problem.

Also statements like "they are costing themselves money by doing or not doing this or that are total BS, they know perfectly well how to maximize their profits, and by saying such things people just show how shortsighted they are.

[5thStreetHog]

"Those players are the ones that respond to the commercials and advertising in the USA has becommed too risky for a business that earns way too much from it's regulars."

What are you talking about? Im guessing your not from the U.S.? All the major poker sites still run commercials at the same rate they did a year ago,if not more.Phil is right "they were exactly the same before the regulation", in that a site like Full Tilt just has a better grasp on marketing in terms of attracting new players(see FT learn from the pros/the sweetheart deal with Fox Sports).And in terms of attracting established players,they fall short in this area as well(see the no RB/one bonus every third full moon).It actually amazes me that they have as many players as they do to be perfectly honest.

[William]

True, I am not from the US and I don't really know how agressive sites are in their advertising.
As I see it, some sites decided to not take a chance and banished US players, others decided that the great profits they could make out of US players was worth the risk and allowed americans to continue playing at their site. It is obvious that once they have taken that step, the smaller the site, the more agressive the marketing. It seems normal that Stars being as large a site as it allready is, focuses in not losing it's customers (knowing that they will get some new ones anyway) rather that attracting many new ones.
To me it is the only logic explanation.

[Lee Jones]

Piece of cake.

Find or create a blank background image of any color you want. Paint or any of a zillion programs will do it for you.

Then, in the PokerStars main lobby...

View-&gt;Themes

Click on Background. It will bring you to a file browser. Find and select your blank bakcground.

All done [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Best regards,
Lee Jones

PokerStars Poker Room Manager
"Watching Sunday Million FT's with a North Carolina trout stream background"