1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting

Rotterdaum · #1 12-02-2006, 07:43 AM

Villain is cuse522. He is a regular, 22/12 over 200 hands. I'm playing straightforward TAG.

Do you still call that river bet if turn is as played? Seems incredibly unlikely to be a bluff. How would you play this differently? What is OK, what's not?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($816.95)
CO ($193.35)
Hero ($716.90)
SB ($92)
BB ($229.35)
UTG ($32.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, MP raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $26, 2 folds, UTG folds, MP calls $20.

Flop: ($57) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($57) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $31, MP raises to $131, Hero calls $100.

River: ($319) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP bets $180, Hero ????

kitaristi0 · #2 12-02-2006, 07:46 AM

How often do you check the flop with ace-high?

Rotterdaum · #3 12-02-2006, 07:57 AM

I check paired flops pretty often regardless of my holding. This flop provides very few realistic draws.

n1nj4.br · #4 12-02-2006, 07:59 AM

His pf raise is wierd, maybe he just wanted to isolate utg? Even so, wierd raise.

After u check flop, wouldnt him lead turn with a boat?

His line is somehow wierd and i think we might be good 30% of time.

rand0 · #5 12-02-2006, 08:12 AM

His $6 could have been a bluff out of the gate but he could've been holding 4,5 or even offsuited low gap connectors such as 4, 6, and got lucky with straight draw or trips on the flop. Hell, he could've had a low pocket pair like 6,6 and flopped QUADS. If it was a straight draw, he could've caught his 2 on the turn for the big bet, or he could've even had 6, 2 offsuit and caught a boat.
I probably would've balked at a $100 dollar raise with only a pair of Queens and such a low board.

Riina · #6 12-02-2006, 08:19 AM

Any plan for your hand falls apart by not making a goodsized bet on the flop. Now, unless you have some read to cling on to, anything could be going on and your reaching in the dark. Im torn for the riverdecision and it would all depend on how i perceive his abilities.

Bad players i call, since they cant interpret your turncall and often go way overboard with bluffs, giving you decent potodds in this hand.

ABC players i fold to, since they interpret your turncall as either A(K/Q/J) of hearts or an overpair, and would have a hard time to continue betting this river with any hand that you beat.

aggro Good players i tend to call a lot more, since they can see you are a decent player that would have trouble calling such a bet with an overpair as the action on the turn played out, and the riverheart coming down. Bluffpossibility increases once more

I'd feel sick in any of the scenarios , no doubt [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

my 2cts

Proofrock · #7 12-02-2006, 08:42 AM

I think you can pretty safely fold the river.

The small preflop raise could be a pot-sweetener with some suited connectors or a low pair (though a little unlikely with low suited connectors because of the shortstack limper) or something like TT+,AJs+,AK,KQs. You're both deep, so his call preflop doesn't narrow this range much.

On the flop, nothing changes. On the turn, though, I figure this could be an overpair (less likely because he checks twice and I don't expect him to check-raise any overpair lower than QQ), trips (also unlikely based on p/f range), a boat, an unlikely straight, or a turned flush draw that expects he can take you off your hand based on your weak bet.

After you call the turn, it seems really unlikely that he's going to try to push you off your overpair. Since the flush draw also got there if he didn't have you on the turn I think he has you now. Given the river, I expect he'd check or make a smaller blocker with almost everything that you beat. If I call I expect to see a flush, a boat, or AA (in roughly that order).

---
Given your description of Villain, I would have prefered to bet the flop, check the turn, call or value bet the river. I don't like checking the flop because your hand is relatively vulnerable, and he doesn't seem likely to run a big multi-street bluff OOP vs. you with deep stacks (so you can pretty safely get away if he gets aggro while still extracting value when you're ahead).

As played, I'm not crazy about the small turn bet. Also, I haven't thought too carefully about it, but there may be value in 3betting the turn.

n1nj4.br · #8 12-02-2006, 08:46 AM

Checking flop is good, and u guys should do it with almost any hand that u 3beted pf with.

rebuyboy · #9 12-02-2006, 08:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
His $6 could have been a bluff out of the gate but he could've been holding 4,5 or even offsuited low gap connectors such as 4, 6, and got lucky with straight draw or trips on the flop. Hell, he could've had a low pocket pair like 6,6 and flopped QUADS. If it was a straight draw, he could've caught his 2 on the turn for the big bet, or he could've even had 6, 2 offsuit and caught a boat.
I probably would've balked at a $100 dollar raise with only a pair of Queens and such a low board.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Riina · #10 12-02-2006, 09:08 AM

mmm, i seriously disagree, since pp's are certainly not the only hands in my 3betting range, and with the majority of those the most of the winnings are made with the CBet on the flop(if it gets to one of course).

In this matter i also do not like checking the flop. Of course there does not seem much harm in checking here, but unless you're playing very playerdependent (preferably a bad aggro bluffy player) i dont like these moves.

I can think of a few arguments, but the main point is that your check changes the dynamics of a hand in a way you get easily tied up in huge pots without knowing that much about where your opponent is at.
It becomes a very swingy game, and i wouldn't be surprised if the ratio bluffs/payoffs vs beats isn't all that great. Holding aces or kings, i think you can get it to bend in your favor, queens is most likely a lot harder since there are too many outs running against you or at the very least killing your action if you're ahead. Dont underestimate the value of picking up these smaller pots on flops like this. Especially with QQ.

regards,