A note on the new sticky Hypocrisy

[Dan87]

jesus christ this whole thread is one huge beat

[darkcore]

in vegas a taxi driver told me once: "everybody is a racist. everyone hates someone for something...".
he also said: "asian girls have a tight vagina!".

well, i am not sure about the second statement...

[Eulysses]

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FWIW I was formerly a columnist on civil liberties for the New York Times ...

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tl;dr

[THEOSU]

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FWIW I was formerly a columnist on civil liberties for the New York Times online magazine, About.com

Racism and cultural-centrism are often confused. One is absurdly unsupported and represents nothing but bigotry and hatred, the other is justified in many ways.

Racism relates specifically to one's DNA. It is a form of prejudice that is based only on heredity, and not a person's world view or cultural outlook. We know that *any* human can be a part of *any* culture - it's the nurture part of the nature/nurture equation.

As such, a prejudice based on something such as DNA - which fails to take into account a person's actions, beliefs, and attitudes - is pure ignorance, and everything we can do to eliminate racism at this level is important for a strong healthy society.

Cultural-centrism is altogether a different issue. It is far more subtle, more complex, and not subject to the same black and white delineation of mere racism.

To reductio ad absurdum, in New Guinea there are cultures that go around murdering each other all day. Constantly at war, they fight and kill - and this is their culture, their lifestyle. In many parts of Africa, rape is NOT illegal. If a woman is dressed in clothes that are no more revealing than what a typical American woman might wear on a summer day, that woman can be raped legally. While some nations such as Kenya and Ethiopia have officially adopted international laws regarding violence against women, the underlying culture has not - with the justice system ignoring pleas for justice, at most slapping the wrists of rapists.


These are two extreme example, to be sure, but they allow us to ask this question:


Do we as a society accept and integrate these CULTURES into ours?

I believe for most reasonable people, the answer is simply no. These cultures have no more place in our present day culture than do nazis.


In another point, many that speak out against Zionist extremism are labeled anti-Semitic. However, it should be possible to comment negatively on a particular world view of a particular subculture without being labeled a racist.

Opposing the worldview and actions of Zionists does not make you anti-Semitic; though it may make you anti-Zionist.

Similarly, being anti-Nazi does not make you anti-Aryan.

Anti-Nazi is cultural-centrism. Anti-Aryan is racism.



As noted above, racism is simply ignorance; but cultural centrism is central to the way we plan and live our lives. We then get to the complex and difficult part of "drawing lines" - acceptable vs. unacceptable;

This part of the equation is deep and without clear resolution. But I bring this up because the new sticky states that there shall be no "racist/anti-semitic/prejudice posting".


We've defined racism above as negative views based on one's DNA.

anti-Semitic comments apply to negative comments of those of jewish decent or culture.

And then the proscription against "prejudice" - which is quite broad.


A useful article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice


Prejudice applies to so many things, and is so open to interpretation that it is sometimes difficult to determine the level of prejudice within the comment.

In context, one might assume that Gildwolf means specifically "racial prejudice", which is easier described simply as racism; but in the context of my post here, he could mean culturally centric prejudice, and as such his sticky is vague.

For example, If I were to say "It seems that Asian ladies make alot of straights on the river" - is that prejudice?

No - in fact it is postjudice, as it is a comment on an observable condition of certain past events.


As a suggestion, I think the wording of the sticky could be altered slightly, to this suggestion:

"racism and derogatory racial comments will not be tolerated in this forum, and any such poster shall be banned".


Cheers,

AB

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worthless drivel. this person has a *.

also, this entire forum has its panties in a bunch.

[BrunoThePug]

My two cents on this topic as a forum owner/operator and a member of forums with strict rules.

These things (bad language, racist comments, non-PC terms etc. etc.) are largely self-regulating.

If a member is posting and using these terms and they are going overboard or outside the realm of humor the other members of the forum will make note and treat the person accordingly. People that go over the top and use certain "offensive" terms at a level that is higher than the accepted level among forum regulars will usually pipe down and stop.

I've only be registered here for maybe a year but it seems like there are more and more rules, regulations, bannable offenses and things you can't say, do or participate in. I think that is unfortunate.

[AlienBoy]

Or getting an asterisk in OOT for allegedly breaking a secret rule that is both capricious and apparently at the whim whoever feels like it.


AB

[Gildwulf]

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making specific blanket anti-racism policy is so absurd. Why don't we make blanket statements that you can't say anything derogatory about women, children, old people, bad poker players, basically there is a prejudice to EVERYTHING in the world.

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It is a matter of degree and tone which unfortunately is also subjective.

For instance, 'nigga plz' is now a part of our cultural lexicon thanks to Dave Chapelle, and 'nigga stole my bike', etc. thanks to YTMND. While I'm not a fan of this, it's OK if used in context in small quantities and basically as long as people don't over do it (which is all subjective).

The problem arises when people start making blanket racism statements and then call it irony, which is what I'm trying to address and which has been increasing steadily in volume.

here are some examples of what I think are OK and not OK; yes, this is subjective but it's also a hell of a lot less subjective than what was going on before.

EXAMPLE 1:

Poster 1: man, this is the worst downswing over, 100 bb, wtf I am never going to survive this
Poster 2: nigga plz, u will be fine just work on your game

Verdict: this is OK, not intended as a racial slur and basically used in context as what it has come to mean like "wtf are you talking about".

EXAMPLE 2:

Poster 1: [censored], I am on a huge 100bb downswing and I can't take it anymore
Poster 2: shutup, whiny f*ggot noone gives a crap

Verdict: not okay, basically the tone is insulting and degrading and is just in general a [censored] post.

EXAMPLE 3

Poster 1: [censored], I am on a huge 100bb downswing and I can't take it anymore
Poster 2: lol u are a negro/lol kike

Verdict: not ok, no context at all, basically not funny, just degrading in general and is a crappy post.

This is the kind of framework I mean in the sticky when I say: "as of now there will be a zero tolerance for racist/anti-semitic/prejudice posting. This includes words like 'k*ke' and 'sp*c' even said jokingly."


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If you want to make 2+2 completely inoffensive; go ahead, but just tackling one random issue seems absurd and a complete waste of time. I don't mind a blanket statement where we don't allow pointless flaming against individuals, but who cares what one person thinks about a subgroup of people?

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I'm intending to tackle one issue that has gotten completely out of hand. As for who cares, 2p2 obviously cares or they wouldn't have made the rules in the first place.

[Gildwulf]

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If a member is posting and using these terms and they are going overboard or outside the realm of humor the other members of the forum will make note and treat the person accordingly. People that go over the top and use certain "offensive" terms at a level that is higher than the accepted level among forum regulars will usually pipe down and stop.


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I wish this was true, if it was I wouldn't have made the sticky.

[FULL RAKE]

lol @ example 3 hahaha wtf. Looks like my AIM conversations.

[kidcolin]

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For instance, 'nigga plz' is now a part of our cultural lexicon thanks to Dave Chapelle, and 'nigga stole my bike', etc. thanks to YTMND. While I'm not a fan of this...

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nigga plz