The war on faith. - Page 5

Matt R. · #41 09-09-2006, 03:18 PM

madnak,
I'm not familiar with the slaughter of the Midianites or your other story, or whether the Bible claims it was ordered by God. It has been too long since my religion classes, and I no longer reference the Bible to determine whether something is moral or not.

I do not take the Bible as literal, first of all. Those stories may be somewhat historical, and I don't know what the beef with the Midianites was. I've never claimed that there could not be human error in the Bible (after all, it was written by humans). My personal use of the Bible comes from the underlying morality.... the stuff hidden beneath Jesus parables, for instance. If you can prove to me that the story of the Midianites is from the Bible and it really advocates slaughtering this group of people for no legitimate reason, I will agree that the "morals" of this story are extremely wrong. But I would *guess* that there is deeper meaning to it and God did not really advocate slaughtering innocents simply because "his people" wanted land or power or some such.

Suffice it to say that either way, I stand by my claim that Jesus (the founder, and reason, for my religion) never advocated such actions. I concede that the Bible may have its flaws, but it would take some convincing that it isn't interpretational issues or there wasn't some deeper meaning to the story.

vhawk01 · #42 09-09-2006, 03:25 PM

What type of formal study are we talking about here, that you did for 15 years? I'm genuinely curious. Do you have a theology doctorate? Or are we just talking about going to Catholic schools your whole life?

Matt R. · #43 09-09-2006, 03:38 PM

I went to Catholic school for ~12 years. I've read books on religious subjects occasionally since then. My teachers were, in general, very capable and dug into the historical aspects of Christianity -- The Crusades and all that stuff, for instance. They never sugar-coated anything with the attitude of "Christianity has never done anything wrong". My impression is that you think my schooling was like having crazy evangelicals teach me that everything in the Bible is fact and all other religions are evil. This wasn't the case. Any of my teachers that commented on the evolution issue, for example, were proponents of evolution and thought creationism was psuedo-science. If some believed in creationism I did not know about it because they never mentioned it.

So... my education was not university level and I do not have a doctorate. But I do have several university-level degrees, and I'm fully capable of judging whether the education I received in grade school or high school was crap or not. My religious education was very legitimate, and my religion teachers were, in general, very good and knowledgeable.

John21 · #44 09-09-2006, 03:58 PM

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I'm confused. When Jesus said to "turn the other cheek," love one another," "do unto others, etc..." what he really meant was to go kill people?

Let me get this straight:
If Jesus says I shouldn't kill people,
And I believe in Jesus and yet kill people,
Jesus is the cause of their death?

To paraphase the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people": religions don't kill people, people kill people.

If you want to remove the concept of personal responsiblity, that's fine. But if you do explain to me why I shouldn't blame the atheistical philosophy that was prevalent in communist russia for the atrocities they committed?

People where killing each other long before religion came on the scene.

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Near as I can tell, you're arguing with yourself. At least, I'm not familar with the atheist philosophical position ( other than the obvious 'I don't believe in a god' one). Could you point to a shortish source where the other tenets are listed? you've my curiousity perked up.

thanks, luckyme

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Short version: Nihilism is a philosophical position which argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following: there is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creator...

DougShrapnel · #45 09-09-2006, 03:59 PM

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Also to OP,
None of this implies a "War on Faith." 92% of Americans believe in god while only 4% call themselves atheists. Many people would like creationsim to be taught in schools instead of evolution. Our president ends every speech with "god bless America." There is no war on faith in this country.
However, there should be. By definition, to believe something on faith is irrational and immoral. It means that you believe something is true without any evidence. After all, if you had evidence for your beliefs, you wouldn't be using faith. In almost every facet of life besides religion (science, everyday decisions), this is considered to be a massive gap in thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]To all that replied thanks for replying.

Yes, religions based ethics and knowledge are outdated and dangerous.

DougShrapnel · #46 09-09-2006, 04:09 PM

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If we continue to abuse the environment in the fashion that we do in order to help some of the more unethical businessmen among us . . .

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And this is where your credibility tends to zero.

Why exactly does an OP about religion need an anti-business environmental dig stuck in the middle of it? It doesn't. In the eyes of many readers (perhaps half) this labels you as a loon. Many stop reading immediately, and others dismiss what you've written out of hand.

What I'm saying is, stick to the topic at hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Any time a ACister calls me a loon I know I must be on to something. The post is about ethics, religious based ethics mainly. The quote wasn't anti-business. It was pro ethical. I am refering about the businesses that deliberatly muddied, and confused the debate on climate change and were some of the worlds largest poluters. Or do you think that all businessmen are ethical? I think you take capitalism a liitle to far when any attack on the practices of business lables me a loon. I did however almost leave it about because I expected someone to comment about it.

luckyme · #47 09-09-2006, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Short version: Nihilism is a philosophical position which argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following: there is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creator...

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Garsh, I had no idea. Now I'm in an existential dilemma...I don't believe in Gods and I'm not a Nihlist.. where to turn, where to turn..

thanks a lot, luckyme

DougShrapnel · #48 09-09-2006, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused. When Jesus said to "turn the other cheek," love one another," "do unto others, etc..." what he really meant was to go kill people?

Let me get this straight:
If Jesus says I shouldn't kill people,
And I believe in Jesus and yet kill people,
Jesus is the cause of their death?

To paraphase the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people": religions don't kill people, people kill people.

If you want to remove the concept of personal responsiblity, that's fine. But if you do explain to me why I shouldn't blame the atheistical philosophy that was prevalent in communist russia for the atrocities they committed?

People where killing each other long before religion came on the scene.

[/ QUOTE ]

Near as I can tell, you're arguing with yourself. At least, I'm not familar with the atheist philosophical position ( other than the obvious 'I don't believe in a god' one). Could you point to a shortish source where the other tenets are listed? you've my curiousity perked up.

thanks, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Short version: Nihilism is a philosophical position which argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following: there is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creator...

[/ QUOTE ]You do understand that Nihilism is not equal to atheism? We could be hedonists, utilitarian, objectivist, secular humanists, Spinoza, .... I imagine there are even one or two atheist christians.

DougShrapnel · #49 09-09-2006, 04:27 PM

Matt R, the accusation doesn't only include that religious faith leads to violence. Do you believe that those of a typcial religious faith care as much about the continued existance of earth and life as we know it as a typical atheist does?

John21 · #50 09-09-2006, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Short version: Nihilism is a philosophical position which argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following: there is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creator...

[/ QUOTE ]

Garsh, I had no idea. Now I'm in an existential dilemma... I don't believe in Gods and I'm not a Nihlist.. where to turn, where to turn..

thanks a lot, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

After the Nietzsche phase, this seems to be the next stop:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)

Of course some people never make it past Nietzsche. And instead of using his teaching as a stepping stone, seem comfortable lying in the philosophical bed he made. But they're easy enough to spot - in fact they're impossible to miss. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]