Ring game/Weaker players

dot335 · #1 09-07-2006, 05:42 AM

Yesterday i found a quite interesting cardplayer article about full-ring limit-holdem games with several weak players in it:
http://www.cardplayer.com/magazine/article/15647

It basically says that it can become very frustrating to play in these games because your big hands will often be cracked through questionable calls by weaker players.
But because of your heavy preflop-raising with your big hand these players actually gets the right odds to call you down with only second or third pair in a big multiway pot.
Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

I dont know if this is a common way to play, but it is quite new to me.
How do you think about it? How do you deal with those kind of ring-games?

Should I just call preflop here???:

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero caps, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24SB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24BB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Ampelmann · #2 09-07-2006, 05:48 AM

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It basically says that it can become very frustrating to play in these games because your big hands will often be cracked through questionable calls by weaker players.

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Yes. But even more often they pay you off with weak holdings.

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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Almost always this is plain wrong. Why this is wrong is explained in SSHE.

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Should I just call preflop here???:

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No. Never ever.

And why the [censored] are you folding the turn, getting 26:1?

Ampelmann · #3 09-07-2006, 05:58 AM

I'm just reading throught the article. In the 5th paragraph hero only calls a raise with TPTK on a draw-heavy board. This is really bad. Hero likely has the best hand on this flop, he is likely the favorite for the hand and he definitely has a nice equity edge. Giving a cheap card to flush draws and OESD's (let alone gutshots and weaker pairs) is a mistake.

He might just call in order to c/r the turn. But he can't be sure CO will bet. CO might take a free card. So 3-bet flop.

Edit: In the final paragraph the author states that only limping big hands preflop is another weapon against weak players. WTF. Limping big hands preflop is a tricky, deceptive tactic working best/only against good, thinking players.

The best weapon against weak players that play too many hands and go too far with weak draws simply is value betting whenever you have an equity edge.

Dastone · #4 09-07-2006, 06:55 AM

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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They don't care about pot odds anyways. If your not raising when you have the best of it then you are losing value.

Let your opponnents decide whether they want to fold or not. Don't go trying to force out someone who came to play out of the pot. Bet your hand.

Worry about manipulating pot size when playing against opponnents who consider these types of things.

Edit: I didn't bother reading the article, but I think Ampellman summed up it up very well.

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S · #5 09-07-2006, 07:26 AM

i call the turn

there is like a bazillion bets

resboard · #6 09-07-2006, 07:48 AM

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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Most likely if someone is playing bad hands and going to far with them, they probably do not even know the term pot odds.

DashBrannigan · #7 09-07-2006, 07:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero caps, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24SB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (24BB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where is this game???!!!! and Please tell me if it's over .25/.50... GET ME IN THERE!!!!

Oh yeah.... don't fold turn. 26:1 are great odds. One of the rules of SSH YOU DO NOT FOLD STRONG HANDS FOR ONE MORE BET IN MONSTER POTS.

Oh and the article. I've only started studying holdem but it seems like quackery to me. If I have the best hand pre-flop I want to raise... don't I?

Ampelmann · #8 09-07-2006, 08:54 AM

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Oh and the article.

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To all newbies: Don't read this article if you want to learn good HE. The author's analysis of most streets in the example hand is wrong.

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If I have the best hand pre-flop I want to raise... don't I?

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Of course you do. Anyone who plays against A's makes a mistake preflop, since every other hand is a huge underdog. Of course, people don't know there are A's around. However, almost everyone calling the 3-bet preflop is definitely making a major mistake. Why not exploit this mistake further by capping? Not capping this pf is also a mistake.

sarsen · #9 09-07-2006, 11:02 AM

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Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

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The author of this article hates money.

If you have a large pre-flop equity edge with hands like AA and KK you HAVE to raise.

davelin · #10 09-07-2006, 11:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It basically says that it can become very frustrating to play in these games because your big hands will often be cracked through questionable calls by weaker players.
But because of your heavy preflop-raising with your big hand these players actually gets the right odds to call you down with only second or third pair in a big multiway pot.
Thats why the author suggests not to raise your big hands preflop, so that your opponents wont have the odds to call you on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read -

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue19/lin0706.html