($60t) shortie pushes on bubble, i want in

[peek-a-boo]

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t400 with t25 antes (4 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

CO (t1022)
Hero (t1888)
SB (t6210)
BB (t4380)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red">CO raises to t997 (All-in)</font> Hero ???

Blinds are freaky tight. Giving walks, not push/raising, etc.

BB might make an obligatory call if I step aside. I'm debating if it's correct to ask for BB's assistance by simply calling, or push over here and gambool with shortie. Basically, do I WANT BB's help? Obviously if shortie doubles+ through with me, I'm hurting...if he doubles through without me (I fold), meh...

(I do call a push over behind if I call)

What's your move?

[alvaroaze]

instafold. if BB folds i berate him via chat.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
instafold. if BB folds i berate him via chat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that OP is doing the right thing here by considering this spot. I don't think this is an instafold. I think there is reason to fold here, and reason to call. Clearly if hero is the BB this is an easy call. Given that you think this is an instafold, I'm interested in your reasoning.

[hey_hermano]

Do you have any reads on villain?

You specified that SB and BB were insanely tight. Is this because of bubble or in general? If because of bubble, then what about passively maintaining the bubble (i.e., not making this call) to continue stealing from the blinds (remember: they will always be on your left even when NOT in blinds, which is great for you). If they are generally tight, then why (essentially) risk your tournament life on a hand where villain's ace high has you beat already? Continue building your stack through them and raise your chances of placing higher ITM, IMO. It seems like they are trying to maintain their stack sizes, so take advantage of this and before they know it, you will be right there with them.

Situationally (i.e., independant of reads), IMO, this is a fold.

[hey_hermano]

I guess I should clarify my previous post, since I can't find the edit button...

I think it's a fold. Even with a read, at best you are 5:3 favorite (I think those are the right odds), which I don't think is good enough to risk your stack.

[ManChild]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have any reads on villain?

You specified that SB and BB were insanely tight. Is this because of bubble or in general? If because of bubble, then what about passively maintaining the bubble (i.e., not making this call) to continue stealing from the blinds (remember: they will always be on your left even when NOT in blinds, which is great for you). If they are generally tight, then why (essentially) risk your tournament life on a hand where villain's ace high has you beat already? Continue building your stack through them and raise your chances of placing higher ITM, IMO. It seems like they are trying to maintain their stack sizes, so take advantage of this and before they know it, you will be right there with them.

Situationally (i.e., independant of reads), IMO, this is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fold here is correct, even if SB and BB have been playing tight, unless BB is impressively stupid he will call, and SB very well may limp also.....
In regards to folding for the reason of prolonging the bubble in order to steal from the blinds, you really are not in the correct shape to do that, this can be implented when chip leader, or when there is a stack (or 2) that have less than one BB (( BOTH of these situations allow you to PWN either the entire table, or certain other players at the table depending on position of the stacks.... )) your stack is too short to take advantage of the bubble even with tight players acting behind you, the bottom line is taht they have you covered WELL and right here you should be focusing more on making it ITM then on moving up to 2nd place or higher

[hey_hermano]

[ QUOTE ]

The fold here is correct, even if SB and BB have been playing tight, unless BB is impressively stupid he will call, and SB very well may limp also.....
In regards to folding for the reason of prolonging the bubble in order to steal from the blinds, you really are not in the correct shape to do that, this can be implented when chip leader, or when there is a stack (or 2) that have less than one BB (( BOTH of these situations allow you to PWN either the entire table, or certain other players at the table depending on position of the stacks.... )) your stack is too short to take advantage of the bubble even with tight players acting behind you, the bottom line is taht they have you covered WELL and right here you should be focusing more on making it ITM then on moving up to 2nd place or higher

[/ QUOTE ]

I take back my first post. I got too sneaky/impractical for my own good. Nice post manchild.

[bennies]

Yep, you do want BB's help, so no pushing here. Without doing the calcs I'd say it's close between calling and folding, shortie would have to be on a big range (including K2+) to call though.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, you do want BB's help, so no pushing here. Without doing the calcs I'd say it's close between calling and folding, shortie would have to be on a big range (including K2+) to call though.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. What are you talking about? Why isn't the range any ace, any pair, any two broadway not enough? If you know villain is only pushing any pair + any ace, then you could think that folding is close/not enough.

There is the potential for a huge equity transfer here. Not thinking about these spots is a huge leak. Certainly BB should call, but his motives are clear, in that he is waiting for a hand.

Now if you make the decision to play (which I'm specifically not commenting on)what makes this the difference between a call and a shove is if BB is a donkey, IMO, if he's a donkey, it's a shove. Last thing we want is someone who is going to bluff into a dry side pot, or bet middle pair, essentially committing us to only seeing 3 cards instead of 5.

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yep, you do want BB's help, so no pushing here. Without doing the calcs I'd say it's close between calling and folding, shortie would have to be on a big range (including K2+) to call though.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. What are you talking about? Why isn't the range any ace, any pair, any two broadway not enough? If you know villain is only pushing any pair + any ace, then you could think that folding is close/not enough.


There is the potential for a huge equity transfer here. Not thinking about these spots is a huge leak. Certainly BB should call, but his motives are clear, in that he is waiting for a hand.


Now if you make the decision to play (which I'm specifically not commenting on)what makes this the difference between a call and a shove is if BB is a donkey, IMO, if he's a donkey, it's a shove. Last thing we want is someone who is going to bluff into a dry side pot, or bet middle pair, essentially committing us to only seeing 3 cards instead of 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, commenting on your 3 paragraphs (I don't know if they were all adressed to my post).

1: We obviously need someone to do calcs for some ranges. However, without doing them my feel tells me we need to be ahead of shorties range to play here, I could be wrong of course, these potential 3-way things are tricky...

2: ...which is why I agree we should think about these spots [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

3: I don't think the BB-donkey-factor is very important here. If you don't want to be bluffed out on the flop then don't fold. However, I think BB's presence in the hand is very much wanted.