Whose starting law school in the fall?

[pokerlaw]

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Everyone is saying how important it is to go to a top tier law school and get great grades, so i'd like to hear the board's thoughts on what's available if someone actually completes such a difficult task.

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Just came across this thread and thought I would weigh in w/ my $0.02.

Little on me first - I started law school at Fordham back in 2002, after graduating from college (U of Delware) in 2001, finance major. I then got my LLM in tax at NYU and now work for a big 4 accounting firm. So far I am very happy w/ how everything panned out.

Here's what I learned:

First, on jobs, your first year grades are paramount in getting a big firm job, but they are not the end all. The NY ones have pretty much all made the move to $145k starting, which is nice. Just about all of my friends went that route, aside from one who is clerking prior to starting at one. Pretty much all of them were top 25% of the class. Although I know people who were in the ~60th percentile that landed big firm jobs after passing the bar exam.

The hours are pretty damn long. My roomate works in bankruptcy law and his avg hours are 10-11. All the firms pretty much seem to maintain similar hours. The one exception is my friend who does patent law. Her hours are much more reasonable and fall in the 10-6 range. However, the biggest thing about the work schedule is the unpredictability. Its the nature of the profession and can go from 50 hours on week to 100 the next. And you never really know what type of week is coming next.

As far as top 4 accounting, the hours are less, but its about 2/3rds the starting pay. Mine were 40/wk for the first few months, but the last few weeks are more in the 65 hour range (9-9 mon - fri and 6 hours on sat or sun) as we are wrapping up a project.

On school -

You have to want it. I did more work then I ever thought I would, and you have to be comfortable with long hours. The good thing is that you are your own boss, so you can study when you want. Of course, that doesnt mean you should give yourself off every friday [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If you want it, you'll feel too guilty partying when you know you should be studying anyway.

I got a good amount of A's and one A+. I got a good amount of B+'s and some B's also. Most of the good grades came in tax/corporate classes, and I know that my finance and accounting background had a lot to do with that. I also find that material more interesting though, so I work at it harder than say, criminal procedure (still a great class worth taking).

How I studied:

first, I went to every class and had done the assigned reading about 99% of the time. I was one of the freaks who used 5 colors of highlighter while reading every case. I recommend the method, which I borrowed largely from the book Law School Confidential. Green for facts, yellow for analysis, red for holding, blue for citing precedent and orange for dissents. I found doing that and writing in the margin of the cases helped for outlining later. I tried to fairly on pace with the outlining, but wouldnt recommend starting outline until the end of september, as you will be pretty clueless as to what the f*ck is going on until around then. I liked to outline in consecutive 5-8 hour blocks, in that I would do one subject over that time (property from 11-6 and torts from 8-1 on a saturday, for example). If anyone wants to see an outline I made as an example, send me a PM and I can email it to you.

I certainly did my share of partying/relaxing, but its all about time management. Like, in Sept, get your reading done, go to class, and then enjoy life, cause come Nov its going to suck [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Ok, thats what I got for now, but I'm more than happy to answer questions people might have.

Dominate the experience [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DrewDevil]

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everyone is talking about really crappy law jobs, i just want to know what people think is available to someone who gets in to a top five school and busts their ass being in the top 10-25% maybe some other stuff like mock trial/law review.

Everyone is saying how hard it is to get good jobs, does anyone know how that changes as you become a more and more attractive applicant?

Everyone is saying how important it is to go to a top tier law school and get great grades, so i'd like to hear the board's thoughts on what's available if someone actually completes such a difficult task.

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If you're in the top quarter of a top twenty law school after your first year, you'll get at least an interview at just about any law firm in your state. If you're in the top ten percent, any law firm anywhere.

And as long as you don't throw up on the rep or say something horribly offensive, you'll get a summer clerkship offer at said firms.

[MrMon]

If you're in the top 20% of just about any decent law school, you'll get a pretty good offer from somewhere. It might be in the area the law school is in, not NY or LA, but it'll be a good offer for the area.

[Jdanz]

I'm saying if you're a pimp applicant 25% or better in a top five law school how much does that change your offers after law school.

I'm talking about lifewise, not just moneywise. People keep talking about hating the life of a lawyer, but do you have options for good pay while leading a less ridiculous lifestyle?

if you're that impressive of an applicant does it open more enjoyable jobs or just more lucrative ones?

(coming from a guy who would much rather work 40-60 hours a week for less money than 70-90 even for a HUGE pay increase)

[MrMon]

I'm pretty sure that all members of a particular class at a particular firm get the same offer, dollarwise and hourwise, no special deals for hotshots from top schools.

You can easily work 40-60 hour weeks at top midwest firms if you're willing to work for $100k to start. On a per hour basis and considering cost of living, that's pretty favorable compared to NY. The problem would come later, when NY associates who survive earn way more, while midwest associates suffer from pay compression, but way less stress from overwork.

There is no free lunch in law, as an associate, the more you earn, the more you work.

[Jdanz]

yeah, whatever, i'd much prefer making less money with less hours plus more work enjoyment, but I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in the midwest.

hmmmmm.

Oh and my two cents i guess. I know a ton of lawyers even though I'm not in law school yet. Both my parents are lawyers and I've worked for NYPD Legal, my local DA, and a Czech legal consulting firm.

The happiest lawyer I know is my dad, who is a suburban solo-practioner. He does criminal defense (mostly juvenille) and makes very good money working roughly 35 hours a week. Probably takes 6-8 weeks vacation a year, and golfs 1-2 week day afternoons in the summer.

He's been doing it for 20 years, but it seems like a solo practioner with a niche and a reputation really is heads and shoulders above everyone else in sheer life enjoyment.

The really fun part is I could take over his practice make 200k+ a year from the time I'm 25 as he begins his retirement, as I've watched his practice forever, plus know all the DAs in the county, but i'm gonna be an [censored] and go my own way.

Man i suck at life.

Oh, the NYPD lawyers and the DA guys made less money then the Czech lawyers, and worked less. They also seemed happier overall. YMMV.

edit: The reasons I'm passing are 1) I want to make it on my own rather than have success handed to me and 2) He started at 40 and is starting to get bored in his 60s, I don't think I could do his work for 40 years without getting bored, and I want to do something, for lack of a better word, "bigger" than solo-practicioner in the county, doing a ton of motor vehicile stuff and petty drug chrages.

I think the repping juvies has been huge for his life satisfaction though, and I'd probably get a lot out of it too.

[Eaglebauer]

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You can easily work 40-60 hour weeks at top midwest firms if you're willing to work for $100k to start.

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I don't know about that, at least not for me. I'm at a "big firm" in the Midwest, although not 'prestigious big', per se. Last year I was 60-70 (with a few 80s of course). This year I'm more 55-60.... and in disfavor with the partners, too :P


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There is no free lunch in law, as an associate, the more you earn, the more you work.

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True that.

I was like Jdanz when I got into it. I was willing to forego salary for less hours and quality of life. Problem is, the choices for me have been pretty much-- work like a dog and make good money, or work like a normal human being and make poverty wages (factoring in debt and all). No in-between.

[Eaglebauer]

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The really fun part is I could take over his practice make 200k+ a year from the time I'm 25 as he begins his retirement, as I've watched his practice forever, plus know all the DAs in the county, but i'm gonna be an [censored] and go my own way.

Man i suck at life.

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Best of all worlds would be if your father can leave this option open for you for a few years while you go out and do stuff on your own. I understand the need to do something different and for yourself.

Thing is though I bet after 5 years on your own you'd really like to have that established 200k/year, 35hr/wk practice to fall into.

The fact that your parents are both lawyers is a big plus for you since you should be very prepared for what you'd be getting yourself into. I honestly did not really know any lawyers before I became one.

[MrMon]

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You can easily work 40-60 hour weeks at top midwest firms if you're willing to work for $100k to start.

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I don't know about that, at least not for me. I'm at a "big firm" in the Midwest, although not 'prestigious big', per se. Last year I was 60-70 (with a few 80s of course). This year I'm more 55-60.... and in disfavor with the partners, too :P


[ QUOTE ]
There is no free lunch in law, as an associate, the more you earn, the more you work.

[/ QUOTE ]

True that.

I was like Jdanz when I got into it. I was willing to forego salary for less hours and quality of life. Problem is, the choices for me have been pretty much-- work like a dog and make good money, or work like a normal human being and make poverty wages (factoring in debt and all). No in-between.

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Now, I'm not talking about Chicago, but in most of the Midwest, 1900 billable is pretty standard. You won't get there at 40 per week, but you don't often have to be in the office 60+ per week either, especially when you realize that 1900 is really 1800 to keep progressing. If you're in the office 50-55 per week, you'll be okay at most firms, if you'll also stay late and work on weekends when necessary. Note that litigators work by different rules, they can work massive hours with no control when a big case roles in. I'm talking more about transactional work, where there is some control.

[Jdanz]

The problem is he might be retiring. It's not going to matter too much I don't think, even if i decided 5 years from now to do it (ten years and he probably wouldn't be much help), he could probably be a pretty huge help, plus i know a ton of his friends and judges and i've already worked at the local prosecutors office, and discussed his cases/practice for 10 years.

I'm pretty happy that in the end I have a pretty unbelievable fall back. Truth is i could have that situation as long as i got into any law school, almost failed, but passed the bar, which is part of why it's so unappealing to me.

If you go the solo practicioner route grades/name doesn't matter. I just can't quite stomach the idea that it would be way too easy.

I want something more challenging and stimulating (even though i think his work is very satisfying, it's mostly brokering plea bargains with his friends), but it's scary to leave the sure thing behind, wish me luck though, because i'm passing it up a minute at a time by not going to law school right out of college.