Fossilman's Account Hacked?

[mattnxtc]

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I think you are framing the issue in the wrong way. Are the WPT release forms fair in what rights they take from players, while at the same time, they limit players options with the stipulations in their agreements with the casinos that host their tournaments, preventing those casinos from hosting any other televised tournaments?

Obviously, the WPT will only "need" to change if they are forced to, hence the lawsuit. I agree with Greg in that I feel many other poker players agree with their stance. I know I do.

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The reality is that the WPT took all the risk in establishing the tour. Therefore they set up the rules. now that it has been a hit it is time to do some collective bargaining...does any of this sound familiar? Its what is done in every other sport. Why these 7 dont realize this is beyond me. All i ask is that they do it the right way...Why bring the courts into this when it isnt necessary. Honestly it just looks lazy on the party of the players

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The WPT is asked to change their release forms (see the above link); they say "no" (as Fossilman has stated in this thread.) Various players seek to see other options to the WPT created, but are limited by the WPT's agreements with casinos. Therefore they sue on antitrust grounds. A few message board posters call them greedy, saying they are just in it for their own financial interests. Fossilman says if they'd alter their release forms, the lawsuit could quickly be settled. So I say, "call their bluff" - prove they are greedy money grubbers by altering the release forms to be like ESPN's. If they refuse to drop the lawsuit then, then maybe those calling them greedy and out for themselves would have a leg to stand on.

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no company in their right mind is going to change just b/c 7 people ask them to. Heck if a tournament has just 500 people, these 7 represent roughly 1% of the field. Do you really think they are worried about changing their entire structure b/c 1% disagrees? Please think about these things

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They asked them to change the release forms, and they said "NO". What's so hard to understand about that? This isn't the Middle East peace process; it's not that complicated. Again, why does the WPT need to have the right to misuse players names, if they are never going to misuse them???

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see the above argument and explain why the WPT should care what 1% of the field things? Now if the 7 had done it the right way, gathered up the support of all the pros and come with say 100 of the pros or more...well then just maybe you see the WPT do something...but when 1% comes...its not hard to see why they were laughed at and told no

[Vee Quiva]

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You are correct, Micro. Barry has indeed criticized the lawsuit:


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Poker pro Barry Greenstein, who is not part of the suit, said the action amounted to a dog biting the hand that fed it, although he sympathized with both sides.

"All of us as poker players were degenerates until the World Poker Tour started the whole ball rolling," the 51-year-old said, adding he had parlayed fame on the tour into a sponsorship deal with a major online poker site and is selling a poker advice book.

"I've been involved in DVDs and video games and all these types of things, even though I've got no money out of it," he said. "I know that I get a lot of perks from being a celebrity."




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http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...a/15074349.htm

This lawsuit is all about greed on the part of the 7 plaintiffs and is not supported by all poker players. For Greg to claim that is disingenous at best

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I have not seen anyone mention this yet. The probable reason that Negreanu and Greenstein are against the lawsuit is that they play regularly with Lyle Berman who owns a big piece of the WPT.

Now whether they care about Lyle Berman as a friend or as a source of future income, I have no idea. It is however obvious where they are getting their information to form their "educated" opinions.

[West]

i would put it this way - some poker players think the release the WPT makes players sign is unfair, and want it changed, the WPT has refused, and certain players who can afford to chose to file a lawsuit because the WPTs agreements with casinos that host their tournaments limit competition with the WPT, thus limiting the options of players who don't want to give the WPT rights to their names beyond a reasonable point

[mattnxtc]

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Well as Greg just said in the post above, other sports negotiate though a players union.

Why is this option not being pushed? Everybody understands poker is an individual game, but golf is too yet they all realize the need to make sure they are protected and getting the best deal.

Poker has the potential to be a greater attraction than the other sports but not doing it the right way could hinder its growth...We dont know and it appears that the 7 are willing to risk it

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Poker isn't like other sports, though, in that there's no barrier to entry. You can organize players in other sports, because there are only a certain number of people that can possibly be involved, and that number remains fixed from year to year. How are you going to organize millions of players?

Also, there is no union on the PGA Tour. There's a players' advisory board (and the WSOP has one of those), but the Tour execs are under no obligation to make any changes they might suggest.

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which brings up a good point..but imagine what happens if the big name pros (tiger, phil, vijay...) decide to all skip a tournament with something they feel is wrong...do you think the tour is just going to go about it like nothing is wrong? Of course not b/c there is massive amounts of money involved...

Now imagine if these 7 take the time to form a group with say the top 100 as listed in the other thread going in this forum. Now those top 100 go to the WPT and say we want changes or we will all skip tournaments. Now its a different story isnt it.

As you said also the wsop has set up an advisory board. Instead of making demands why not look to do this? It just appears egos got in the way of doing what is right

[NicksDad1970]

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I'd like to mention two things. This is in reply to several different posts throughout the thread.

First, I was wrong to insult Daniel. Whatever my feelings, I should have kept the negative comments to myself. They don't help me or the cause we are fighting in this lawsuit, and they might have been hurtful to Daniel. For that I am sorry, and I do apologize.

Second, many people make the comment that if players don't like the WPT release, they can simply choose not to play. That is true. However, what if you wish to play in an open-to-the-public big-buyin televised tournament? Other than the WPT, where can you do this? The WSOP, of course; as well as the U.S. Poker Championships at the Taj. So, for a month and a half in Vegas you can play the WSOP, and then with the Circuit events and the Taj that's another half dozen events per year. What else?

I know of no other options within the U.S. Events like the NBC Heads-up Championship and Poker SuperStars Invitational don't count, because they are not open to the public.

So, if you have other events you think meet the above definition, let us know. I'm pretty sure there are none at the present.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

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pure class, no surprise though.

The first thought when you said "where else can you play" for some reason it made me laugh thinking about the PPT saying "everyone wants to be a PPT champion" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But seriously what would be the hardest part about setting up your own tour?

I would think with your connections you could pull it off. It may take a few years to plan and negotiate with casinos but what would be the hardest part? I'm sure you could talk Poker Stars into sponsoring something.

Then if you do it right you could be the one writing the rules instead of being asked to follow them.

[entertainme]

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As I said above, I am spending my own money, without any expectation of making a profit, let alone getting that money back, to help all of us. The only disappointment in this whole process to date has been those very few poker players who have posted here and on other forums their displeasure with us for our decision to file this lawsuit. I am sad that they don't understand how we are doing this to help them.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

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I first became interested in poker by watching the WPT. I do think their broadcasts have been instrumental in the poker boom.

Nevertheless, there's no doubt in my mind that the players have a right to a fairer contract in regards to the WPT owming their image and name. Good luck in negotiating a better deal for all poker players.

[mattnxtc]

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As I said above, I am spending my own money, without any expectation of making a profit, let alone getting that money back, to help all of us. The only disappointment in this whole process to date has been those very few poker players who have posted here and on other forums their displeasure with us for our decision to file this lawsuit. I am sad that they don't understand how we are doing this to help them.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

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I first became interested in poker by watching the WPT. I do think their broadcasts have been instrumental in the poker boom.

Nevertheless, there's no doubt in my mind that the players have a right to a fairer contract in regards to the WPT owming their image and name. Good luck in negotiating a better deal for all poker players.

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i would venture that most players wish that actual negotiations were going on instead of being quick so sue. just my thought though

[TomHimself]

sorry if i missed this but what is the timeline for this lawsuit? will it drag on forever or will it try and be speedy?

[TimDugan]

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However, what if you wish to play in an open-to-the-public big-buyin televised tournament?

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From my limited experience with anti-trust laws (I'm in law school and I took ONE class on "Sports Law" that was PART anti-trust), this sounds like the "relevant market" you're trying to define (this is one of the elements of an anti-trust case: defining a relevant market).

I'm guessing the WPT would argue that the market is all poker tournaments, which as Greg stated, there are plenty of tournaments out there. It seems that one of the bigger issues of the anti-trust part of the case might hinge on the issue of what the "market" for poker tournaments is. It seems to me that once the market is defined by the court, the rest will fall into line quite quickly.

Is that right at all? I'm just a third-year law student with no real interest in IP law, but I do find this case interesting. I'm just trying to wrap my head around it :P

[NCAces]

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Question, what is the difference between submitting the suit as the seven individuals vs as a class action suit? Is it because the settlement process would be easier to accomplish?

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The big difference between a class action and a regular lawsuit is ... The most common reason for a class action suit is that it allows plaintiff's attorneys to make millions of dollars while the class gets $5 certificates for a product that costs hundreds or thousands."

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