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#11
08-04-2006, 04:50 PM
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Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
I call, but I showdown too much.
Having said that, it's kind of a crazy flop to donk with only a draw, since the flop probably hit you nicely. If he flopped a flush he could donk it. 
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#16
08-05-2006, 01:48 AM
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Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
[ QUOTE ]
this is why you raise the flop [/ QUOTE ] Raising this flop in this HU pot = I dont know how to play poker.
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#17
08-05-2006, 02:16 AM
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Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] this is why you raise the flop [/ QUOTE ] Raising this flop in this HU pot = I dont know how to play poker. [/ QUOTE ] I obviously suck then but why Mr Expert?
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#18
08-05-2006, 02:37 AM
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Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] this is why you raise the flop [/ QUOTE ] Raising this flop in this HU pot = I dont know how to play poker. [/ QUOTE ] I obviously suck then but why Mr Expert? [/ QUOTE ] If this guy is betting a heart draw, we want him betting the turn, raising the flop stops this process. If the villain somehow has a better hand than us, raising the flop is also obviously a bad idea. If the villain somehow has nothing, raising the flop stops him from bluffing. If a heart hits the turn the hero will also be glad he didnt raise the flop. The point here is, If you absolutely feel compelled to raise, the time to do it would be on the turn. Atleast at this point you can charge all draws/lesser hands the maximum when the turn blanks off. But IMO, I wouldnt even raise turn blank either, I think the best way to play this hand is to just call down. If the villain has nothing or a draw he may bluff the whole way, if the villian has a better hand or improves to a better hand, the hero will minimize his loss. I would only raise a turn blank if I were positive this guy would not bluff the river nor would he 3bet the turn with a lesser hand either.
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#19
08-05-2006, 04:25 AM
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Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
You make no sense if he has a heart draw why do we care if he bets or calls?
If he has a better hand why is raising the flop bad? you'd rather wait for the turn and get 3bet before deciding to call down a non-heart? I'm sure the guy is just going to keep betting into you with a weak heart draw and nothing else, most likely he has something like QhJx or JxTh and is 50/50 vs you, he isnt a loose moron based on his stats so I doubt he is betting air. Not raising at all is just plain weak, you pretty much just let him have a free shot at the pot. Its not like you'll always have a hand here, I assume you'd be folding when you have something like a small PP with no heart. Raising the flop gives you cheap information in a pot you probably arent a huge favourite to win. If there were extra players then waiting for the turn is a much better play because you are more likely dead to any heart. Here however it is HU you raised UTG so unless he has the Ah he probably isnt going to bet into you twice after you raised the flop to show that you have some kind of a hand (of course plenty of LAG idiots do but probably not this guy). This means he will likely check to you on the turn or the river, by not raising he knows you dont have a high heart because why wouldn't you raise the flop? without showing any strength on the flop he will probably assume that you dont have much so he will more likely throw out an extra bet with a weak hand causing you to fold the best hand on the river sometimes. Also I dont like raising a non heart turn HU because he may 3bet semi bluff with a high heart and the pot is too small to warrant a calldown after that.
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#20
08-05-2006, 02:21 PM
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Re: It\'s Another Tequila Sunrise
[ QUOTE ]
You make no sense if he has a heart draw why do we care if he bets or calls? If he has a better hand why is raising the flop bad? you'd rather wait for the turn and get 3bet before deciding to call down a non-heart? I'm sure the guy is just going to keep betting into you with a weak heart draw and nothing else, most likely he has something like QhJx or JxTh and is 50/50 vs you, he isnt a loose moron based on his stats so I doubt he is betting air. Not raising at all is just plain weak, you pretty much just let him have a free shot at the pot. Its not like you'll always have a hand here, I assume you'd be folding when you have something like a small PP with no heart. Raising the flop gives you cheap information in a pot you probably arent a huge favourite to win. If there were extra players then waiting for the turn is a much better play because you are more likely dead to any heart. Here however it is HU you raised UTG so unless he has the Ah he probably isnt going to bet into you twice after you raised the flop to show that you have some kind of a hand (of course plenty of LAG idiots do but probably not this guy). This means he will likely check to you on the turn or the river, by not raising he knows you dont have a high heart because why wouldn't you raise the flop? without showing any strength on the flop he will probably assume that you dont have much so he will more likely throw out an extra bet with a weak hand causing you to fold the best hand on the river sometimes. Also I dont like raising a non heart turn HU because he may 3bet semi bluff with a high heart and the pot is too small to warrant a calldown after that. [/ QUOTE ] If this guy is on a heart draw, we want him to stay in control of this hand, he may bluff all the way, and if he hits we minimize our loss. If he has a better hand raising the flop becomes a costly play. This is just common sense. I dont think I need to elaborate on this one. "Not raising at all is just weak" This is a silly amature statement that I only see beginning pseudo tags make. I dont know how experienced you are at this game helpmeout, but this philosophy of "I have the best hand therefore I raise" does not cut it once you get past 2-4. Holdem is not about raising when you think you have the best hand, holdem is about making money. And one of the true indications of expert play is when you can recognize situations where a passive line with the likely best hand will make/save you the most money in the long run. This is one of those spots Helpmeout. If you dont understand how that is so, then you should think about this hand some more until you figure it out. "Raising the flop for cheap information" All we have on this guy is a stat read, we know nothing else about his game or state of mind. This means that raising for information goes right out the window. The information we gain will not be reliable enough to utilize therefore the strategy of raising for the sole purpose of "finding where were at" is rendered useless. Raising for information is a strategy that should only be done against an opponent you know extremely well. About your last statement "by not raising he knows you dont have a heart because why wouldnt you raise the flop" If we just call the flop our opponent will have no idea what we have, which is a good thing. "Without showing strength on the flop he will probably assume that you dont have much so he will more likely throw out an extra bet with a weak hand" This is also a good thing! And who said anything about folding the river? Bryce made a mistake by folding the river, that doesnt mean he didnt play well the previous streets. Helpmeout, I have actually done several essays on handling flop donks in HU pots, and honestly I am too lazy to discuss this situation further. If you want to learn more about how to handle flop donks in these kind of situations, I'll give you some references. "Holdem Poker for Advanced Players" pg. 147 "Poker Essays 3" pg. 51 and pg. 181
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