Israel's Attack on Lebanon and Hezbollah

[Copernicus]

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BCVP,

Your question is valid, in bringing up the proportionality of response to that of injury inflicted. But it is equally valid to consider the degree to which such a populace is logistically supporting such fighters.

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I won't disagree with that. According to the Salon article (and if others have contradicting evidence, I'm all ears), Hezbollah fighters stay away from civilians out of distrust. So whatever support the "populace" is giving Hezbollah probably isn't much.

That brings up another question. Does the punishment fit the "crime" (support)?

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Why do you accept a single Salon article that provides no factual support for its claim over what is generally acknowledged and as far as I know is uncontested by anyone including HZB itself?

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You didnt answer the question. The article provides no evidence, just makes an unsubtantiated claim that conflicts with what, outside that article is undenied by HZB despte being accused of seem constantly. Why is contradictory evidence needed?

[Copernicus]

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"Say you have 1 Hezbollah fighter living in a town and 399 living outside of the town. Is Israel justified in killing 100 civilians to get to that 1 fighter? "

If hes firing missiles from his prayer rug, absolutely.

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Do you believe there should be any limit at all to the number of civilian casualties? For example, would Israel be justified in nuking Lebanon flat? Your response suggest that they would.

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lets leave nuking out of it, since that brings in ancillary issues. MOABng Lebanon flat? If that is the minimal force necessary to defeat HZB, yes. It became Lebanons problem by virtue of their de facto support of HZB and is not immune from a defense against HZB.

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Let me make sure I understand what you mean. You would be perfectly fine with killing every last man, woman, and child in Lebanon if it would stop Hezbollah?

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If that is the minimal force necessary to stop them yes. Just as we were willing to destroy every major city in Germany or Japan to defeat them.

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That mentality seems sociopathic to me. I don't think there's any reason to continue arguing.

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War is sociopathic, or did you miss that little nuance?

[niss]

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BCVP,

Your question is valid, in bringing up the proportionality of response to that of injury inflicted. But it is equally valid to consider the degree to which such a populace is logistically supporting such fighters.

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Saying that the general population of Beirut is "logistically supporting" Hezbollah so it's OK if they get killed incidentally is like saying it's OK if the police in Newark (NJ) kill law-abiding citizens when going after drug dealers because the citizenry in Newark hasn't risen up and kicked the drug dealers out, notwithstanding the fact that the drug dealers have caches of weapons at their disposal while the citizenry could fight with pepper spray and exacto knives.

[Copernicus]

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BCVP,

Your question is valid, in bringing up the proportionality of response to that of injury inflicted. But it is equally valid to consider the degree to which such a populace is logistically supporting such fighters.

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Saying that the general population of Beirut is "logistically supporting" Hezbollah so it's OK if they get killed incidentally is like saying it's OK if the police in Newark (NJ) kill law-abiding citizens when going after drug dealers because the citizenry in Newark hasn't risen up and kicked the drug dealers out, notwithstanding the fact that the drug dealers have caches of weapons at their disposal while the citizenry could fight with pepper spray and exacto knives.

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not at all similar. The drug dealers' victim is the community itself. They have hired the police to fight the battle for their community. For the police to turnaround and kill their employers is not in any way similar to a soverign nation defending itself against an enemy harbored by another nation.

Your situation would be analagous to the Lebanese army killing Lebanese citizens because they refused to fight HZB.

[BCPVP]

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BCVP,

Your question is valid, in bringing up the proportionality of response to that of injury inflicted. But it is equally valid to consider the degree to which such a populace is logistically supporting such fighters.

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I won't disagree with that. According to the Salon article (and if others have contradicting evidence, I'm all ears), Hezbollah fighters stay away from civilians out of distrust. So whatever support the "populace" is giving Hezbollah probably isn't much.

That brings up another question. Does the punishment fit the "crime" (support)?

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Why do you accept a single Salon article that provides no factual support for its claim over what is generally acknowledged and as far as I know is uncontested by anyone including HZB itself?

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You didnt answer the question. The article provides no evidence, just makes an unsubtantiated claim that conflicts with what, outside that article is undenied by HZB despte being accused of seem constantly. Why is contradictory evidence needed?

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1) I don't think any evidence will convince you otherwise. You've made up your mind.
2) I asked if people had evidence to the contrary. If you have some, don't hesitate to provide it. I'm open to the idea that the article is wrong. For someone whining about a lack of evidence, you certainly aren't providing any.

[Copernicus]

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BCVP,

Your question is valid, in bringing up the proportionality of response to that of injury inflicted. But it is equally valid to consider the degree to which such a populace is logistically supporting such fighters.

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I won't disagree with that. According to the Salon article (and if others have contradicting evidence, I'm all ears), Hezbollah fighters stay away from civilians out of distrust. So whatever support the "populace" is giving Hezbollah probably isn't much.

That brings up another question. Does the punishment fit the "crime" (support)?

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Why do you accept a single Salon article that provides no factual support for its claim over what is generally acknowledged and as far as I know is uncontested by anyone including HZB itself?

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You didnt answer the question. The article provides no evidence, just makes an unsubtantiated claim that conflicts with what, outside that article is undenied by HZB despte being accused of seem constantly. Why is contradictory evidence needed?

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1) I don't think any evidence will convince you otherwise. You've made up your mind.
2) I asked if people had evidence to the contrary. If you have some, don't hesitate to provide it. I'm open to the idea that the article is wrong. For someone whining about a lack of evidence, you certainly aren't providing any.

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In other words, you have no answer. Google "hezballah guerilla" and you'll have plenty of confirmation.

Or try this from that great defender of Israel the UN

[BCPVP]

Instead of starting a new thread, I'll just post this here:
Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same as terror victims - Bolton
A little late, but wow.

[Copernicus]

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Instead of starting a new thread, I'll just post this here:
Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same as terror victims - Bolton
A little late, but wow.

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This smacks of statements being taken out of context. I can fill in the blanks to make those comments to be critical of either side. Lets see the whole statement.

Edit: as I suspected. Here is a more complete statement from Bolton that gives the opposite meaning one might take from the Yahoo piece:

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Bolton said that there is no "moral equivalence" between Lebanese civilians killed by Israel and Israeli civilians killed by Muslim terrorists: "It's simply not the same thing to say that it's the same act to deliberately target innocent civilians, to desire their deaths, to fire rockets and use explosive devices or kidnapping versus the sad and highly unfortunate consequences of self-defense."


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Or did you realize that he was defending Israel and your "wow" was because you think he was over the top?

[BCPVP]

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BCVP,

Your question is valid, in bringing up the proportionality of response to that of injury inflicted. But it is equally valid to consider the degree to which such a populace is logistically supporting such fighters.

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I won't disagree with that. According to the Salon article (and if others have contradicting evidence, I'm all ears), Hezbollah fighters stay away from civilians out of distrust. So whatever support the "populace" is giving Hezbollah probably isn't much.

That brings up another question. Does the punishment fit the "crime" (support)?

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Why do you accept a single Salon article that provides no factual support for its claim over what is generally acknowledged and as far as I know is uncontested by anyone including HZB itself?

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You didnt answer the question. The article provides no evidence, just makes an unsubtantiated claim that conflicts with what, outside that article is undenied by HZB despte being accused of seem constantly. Why is contradictory evidence needed?

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1) I don't think any evidence will convince you otherwise. You've made up your mind.
2) I asked if people had evidence to the contrary. If you have some, don't hesitate to provide it. I'm open to the idea that the article is wrong. For someone whining about a lack of evidence, you certainly aren't providing any.

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In other words, you have no answer. Google "hezballah guerilla" and you'll have plenty of confirmation.

Or try this from that great defender of Israel the UN

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According to you, we shouldn't take anything from the U.N. at face value. And what evidence do they have that Hezbollah fighters are trying to hide among the citizens? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Copernicus]

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BCVP,

Your question is valid, in bringing up the proportionality of response to that of injury inflicted. But it is equally valid to consider the degree to which such a populace is logistically supporting such fighters.

[/ QUOTE ]
I won't disagree with that. According to the Salon article (and if others have contradicting evidence, I'm all ears), Hezbollah fighters stay away from civilians out of distrust. So whatever support the "populace" is giving Hezbollah probably isn't much.

That brings up another question. Does the punishment fit the "crime" (support)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you accept a single Salon article that provides no factual support for its claim over what is generally acknowledged and as far as I know is uncontested by anyone including HZB itself?

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You didnt answer the question. The article provides no evidence, just makes an unsubtantiated claim that conflicts with what, outside that article is undenied by HZB despte being accused of seem constantly. Why is contradictory evidence needed?

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1) I don't think any evidence will convince you otherwise. You've made up your mind.
2) I asked if people had evidence to the contrary. If you have some, don't hesitate to provide it. I'm open to the idea that the article is wrong. For someone whining about a lack of evidence, you certainly aren't providing any.

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In other words, you have no answer. Google "hezballah guerilla" and you'll have plenty of confirmation.

Or try this from that great defender of Israel the UN

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According to you, we shouldn't take anything from the U.N. at face value. And what evidence do they have that Hezbollah fighters are trying to hide among the citizens? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Non-responsive. There are dozens of similar statements if you bother to look. I told you how. Now either answer why the Salon article, with no substantiating evidence carries more weight with you, if you can.

If you cant respond to that specific question youre in the same bin as Cyrus.