The Vegetarian Torture

[El Diablo]

Paluka,

"the exploitation of migrant (and often illegal) workers by fruit and vegetable growers"

How much thought do you give to this in your purchasing decisions?

Would you rather eat fruits and vegetables that involved cruelty to humans basically working in bonded servitude or eat some meat that involved some poor conditions for animals?

[DrewDevil]

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Vegetarian because killing animals is bad - this one is where I just don't get it. It's like, look, there's an animal kingdom, there's a circle of life, there's a food chain, there's evolution, etc. Animals are not people, simple as that. I think a certain contingent of vegetarians tend to forget that.

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There are a number of things in this paragraph that are pretty stupid, to the point where I almost think you are joking. I am well aware that animals aren't people- I don't see how that would make me want to kill them. As for the food chain, who cares? Humans are obviously well beyond the food chain at this point, in the same way that science/technology/progress/whatever has freed humans from many of the limitations that nature once put on us. Saying that we should eat meat because of the food chain is like saying we shouldn't fly because we weren't born with wings.

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You have this backwards.

Humans are naturally omnivorous, so they don't need a reason to kill animals other than to eat them.

Vegetarians need a reason not to eat meat, and I've yet to hear any reasons that are convincing.

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I just don't give a [censored] about what we "naturally" are. Naturally I want to bang every hot girl I see whether she wants to bang me or not, that doens't mean I'm going to become a rapist. Advancing beyond our natural instincts and restrictions is part of what makes us different than other animals.

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You just made my point.

There are lots of good reasons not to rape every hot woman you see.

Why is it more "advanced" not to eat animals? "Advancing beyond our natural instincts" isn't a reason. You still haven't given a good reason not to.

[El Diablo]

Paluka,

Also, see LoL's post, since you didn't seem to understand my abbreviated version of the points she made much more articulately.

[CallMeIshmael]

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I love this thread.

I don't hate vegetarians, but I think they are often self-righteous and pompous about their choices, e.g., all of Elaine's references to "eating flesh," and the like.

I also find some vegetarians ridiculous, i.e., the ones who believe that animals have "rights" and who somehow equate dogs, cats, cows, etc. with humans. "We all share the same earth," garbage like that.

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I would like to say that ELaine and Edward have never said one censorious thing to me about the fact that I eat meat and seafood. We eat together as a family at least once a week, and I am always consulted about what I can/cannot eat whether we are going out or eating a home-cooked meal. Edward called me yesterday with the recipe for the evening's main dish to be sure I could eat it. When we go to a restaurant I order meat or fish (mostly fish), and the rest of the family get something vegetarian--except for little Joey who usually gets chicken.

I have very stringent dietary restrictions, and for various reasons I cannot eat legumes, most raw salad veggies, eggs (I am restricted to very few), and most cheeses (which are too high in fat and sodium). Basically my two sources of protein are non-fat dairy products (which must be limited because of the carbs) and meat/fish (especially fish). I love fruits and vegetables and eat as much of those as my diet strictures and digestion permit.

I accept the fact that Edward's health has improved since he became a vegetarian. He lost weight (the vegetarian choice keeps him out of the fast food joints) and his blood chemistry improved significantly. I also appreciate his concern about factory farming and the mass use of hormones and antibiotics in modern animal husbandry. I do not think it is good to add those hormones/antibiotics to the human diet, and I have certainly reduced the quantity of meat I consume (I am restricted to a portion size of 2-3 ounces--think half a burger).

I, however, do not have a moral/ethical problem with eating meat/fish/poultry and other animal-derived foods (dairy, eggs, honey). Our anatomy and physiology (dentition, digestive apparatus, need to obtain certain amino acids in our diet) clearly indicate that we are omnivores, just as cats are carnivores and cows are herbivores. We are designed to eat animal protein, just as we are also designed to eat fruits and vegetables. Nature has its food chains, and we happen to be at the top of one. If we venture out of our domain and enter the ocean, we may end up being prey for the sharks at the top of that food chain.

If eating meat and fish has ethical and moral problems for some, if not for me, I think that the exploitation of migrant (and often illegal) workers by fruit and vegetable growers also presents moral and ethical problems. I did, after all, participate in the great grape boycott back in the day.

The world is an imperfect place, and each of us needs to find his/her own way to bring about a small improvement. In current Jewish thinking this is called tikkun olam (healing the world)--(usually) small unilateral acts that make an improvement. For some tikkun olam may be vegetarianism, for others something else.

Plants (for the most part) live by photosynthesis. Animals feed from other life forms. That's just the way it is.

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Very good read.

[The DaveR]

Dude, he thinks it's cruel. He's not entitled to think that?

[Paluka]

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Paluka,

"the exploitation of migrant (and often illegal) workers by fruit and vegetable growers"

How much thought do you give to this in your purchasing decisions?

Would you rather eat fruits and vegetables that involved cruelty to humans basically working in bonded servitude or eat some meat that involved some poor conditions for animals?

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I have thought about it, but have not really educated myself on the issue. Historically, meat packing plants and so forth are also really awful places to work, but I don't know that much about current conditions.
Animal cruelty is not my only reason for my vegetarianism- you alluded to some other reasons in your earlier semi-retarded post.

[chesspain]

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Saying that we should eat meat because of the food chain is like saying we shouldn't fly because we weren't born with wings.

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No, saying that we should eat meat because of the food chain is like saying we should fly because we have airplanes.

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WTF

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No, it's like saying "...we should walk because we have legs."

[Paluka]

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Why is it more "advanced" not to eat animals? "Advancing beyond our natural instincts" isn't a reason. You still haven't given a good reason not to.

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I guess we use different starting points. To me, killing an animal is somethign I wouldn't do without a good reason. Because I have alternative dietary options, I choose not to do it.

[El Diablo]

P,

You mean the one where you didn't like the fact that I pointed out we are at the top of a food chain?

Anyway, are you gonna be mad at me when I take your kid to Shake Shack for a delicious burger?

[MaxPower]

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Way to extend MaxPower's last two sentences into a manifesto.

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I just want to feel involved!

-SmileyEH

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I liked your post. Before I got older, lazier, and past my intellectual prime, I would have put it the same way.

I liked Little Old Lady's post as well.

This thread has beens severely hijacked, but I think that Q-tip needs to grow up and stop being so picky about food and at the same time the people who invited him for dinner are not good hosts. As a host, your goal should be to cater to the needs and desires of your guests. These people were being self-centered.