Question for happily married people

[Utah]

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Simple - these things, simply said, are exremely hard for many people to actually make real

[/ QUOTE ]Why are they hard to make real? Why dont they work for most people?

To me, the incredibly low success rate of such an approach signals that something is wrong somewhere with the relationship/marriage model. If we are to assume that such an approach is the only way to a successful marriage then can one conclude that marriage as an institution will never be more successful than it is today?

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Who's the longest married in OOT, I wonder? I'll be 17 yrs in 4 months

[/ QUOTE ]17 years. Wow, that is a loooong time. Congrats.

[diebitter]

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Why are they hard to make real? Why dont they work for most people?

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cos we live in a me-me-me culture that really works against long-term commitment and losing selfishness, and to a lesser extent against trust and compromise too. The fantasy of 'having it all' is still prominent (even more so among female popular literature/culture), and it's ludicrous to think it's possible (though it's not a bad ideal to aspire to, but the difference would be lost on most).

I would agree marriage really doesn't suit a lot of people these days - fine, don't get married. However, if you're not willing to commit to each other for life (or at least the next 20+ years), you should not have children (okay, I'm swerving into Captain Obvious territory there, I'll stop now).

[dcasper70]

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First, I think it is next to impossible to change one's emotional state with therapy/reflection and I would challenge your assertion that working on inner feeling helps emotional state. I once challenged on OOT for someone to produce a valid scientific study showing this. No one did.

But, lets say you could improve your emotional state through working on inner feelings, I still think it would make little difference in your relationships because it wouldnt do much to help core instinctual needs. It may help you attract better mates, but there are MUCH better ways to do that than improving you emotional state.

I think we need to define what emotional state means - my interpetation of the OP was that it meant being able to feel, care, open up, trust, etc. IMHO, these things have almost no value anywhere any that are contrary to being a man.

However, if it means things like confidence, strength, drive, toughness, tenacity, honor, living by a code, etc. then it will have massive effects. But, to change those things one needs to be in the fight and to work hard, have discipline, make changes, accept challenges and take risks, fail and succeed, live through crisis, make tough/impossible decisions, etc. These traits can not be engineered through self reflection and "inner" work.

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I respectfully disagree with your thoughts here. I will not bother looking for any kind of study info, my beliefs come from personal experience. I certainly don't think you are wrong, just that we differ in opinion. Seems like you and I have polar opposite feelings on the subject...

I'd be interested to hear Mrs Utah's feelings on the subject, and your comments.

[odellthurman]

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anyway, my question is basically this. What kind of advice would you give to someone about making relationships/marraiges work with success. It can be simple/obvious or just things you have learned as you have lived on through your relationships and/or marriage.

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Don't go to prostitutes. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...page=0&vc=1

[Utah]

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I respectfully disagree with your thoughts here.

[/ QUOTE ]I am curious as to what parts you disagree with? Are you saying that working on your emotional state is effective and you know this from personal experience? If so, I would be curious to hear your experiences if you are inclined to share. Also, I would be curious if other things were going on in your life as well and I would be curious as to causation versus correlation.

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I will not bother looking for any kind of study info

[/ QUOTE ]No need to. I look hard and could not find one. I am never completely set in my view and I am totally open to opposing ideas and I change if the evidence dictates. However, I looked really hard and could not find valid studies.

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I'd be interested to hear Mrs Utah's feelings on the subject, and your comments.

[/ QUOTE ]Sure. She will be happy to respond. What would you like her to comment on exactly?

[vulturesrow]

The biggest thing for me was to realize that no marriage is perfect. The fairytale world of marriage foisted on us by popular entertainment is a completely myth. It will be hard sometimes and sometimes you'll wonder why you bothered. Dont expect it to be perfect, because it wont be. Try not to let petty arguments and issues obscure the big picture.

Cliffs Notes: Dont sweat the small stuff, marriage isnt perfect. Maximize the good times.

In a word: honesty. Well, 2 words: honesty and communication.

You have to be honest about things that are deal breakers for you and communicate to find solutions or call it quits. Does she get really jealous when you eye a pretty girl? Be honest. "Look, I'm male, I like a pretty girl. When we're together I'll certainly try to keep my eyes more to myself, but you can't fly off the handle if I react to a pretty woman."

She might not like the answer, but she'll understand it. Whether she can accept it or not is her choice. On the other side, you have to honestly keep your gaze more discrete [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

That's just an example. My wife and I have always had a "nothing wrong with looking" rule, but I do try not to stare.

The 3 main things couples argue about are:
money
sex
children

You'd best figure out up front who controls the money. Few couples can have both people run the checkbook, it's just too make cooks in the kitchen. Someone will take the lead in that area and the other one has to defer to them.

Sex. Well, enough said. Either you're compatible or you aren't. Often it's a matter of admitting what you really like and being willing to remember sex is as much about pleasing your partner as yourself. If it were just about pleasing yourself, well, you could handle that on your own.

Children - this is a deal breaker. Either your on the same page or not.

Beyond that, compatibility is important in living styles. Is this someone you could stand as a roommate? Do they share similar tastes in cleanliness, being on time, etc? If not, those things are going to slowly eat at you. Be honest with each other about what bugs you if it's something you don't think you can live with. Pick your battles though. Do you really care that much if you have to put the toilet seat down every time you're done?

[Utah]

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We are attracted to others who we think have good genes. There is a reason why woman [censored] the bad boy, but marry the safe guy. The bad boy conveys strong genes through his looks and attitude, whereas the safe guy conveys good genes through resources and security.

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Sorry to get a bit off topic from the OP but I thought you made a very interesting statement........

Does she marry the safe guy because he has great genes or does she marry the safe guy because he has okay genes but can provide a safe and nurturing environment for her and her children? i.e., is she willing to sacrifice the best genes, the bad boy's, for a combination of good genes + security? Is her ideal scenario to marry the safe guy and get impregnated by the bad boy and trick the safe guy into raising the child?

There are many papers that say exactly this. The conclusions are staggeringly awful as to what they say about love, marriage, relationships, and the nature of what it means to be human. For example, if true, can you imagine a husband, who is deeply in love with his wife and who thinks she loves him the same, knowing that his wife traded superior genes for him and that she instinctually wants to carry a superior male's baby. Its unreal to think about the consequences.

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For example, if true, can you imagine a husband, who is deeply in love with his wife and who thinks she loves him the same, knowing that his wife traded superior genes for him and that she instinctually wants to carry a superior male's baby. Its unreal to think about the consequences.

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So, what do you think this says about someone like me?

I married a woman with 3 children, ages 5, 4 and 2 at the time. I don't think her ex was a "bad boy" really. I know him, he's mellow, but a terrible communicator (which is the main reason their marriage ended).

I willingly accepted fatherhood of 3 kids that aren't mine. I've loved them best I could, provided without question really anything they needed (they live with us about 90% of the time). I don't ask what anything costs, if they need it, I pay it. Braces, sports, clothes, whatever. Yea, we get child support, but it's nowhere close to what we pay out. I can see more of my personality in the youngest than his dad's personality, so I know my parental influence has had an impact. I chose to get a vasectomy as I really didn't want more kids and it's a very minor surgery, compared to my wife getting tubes tied which is pretty invasive and carries more risk.

Where's my "evolutionary" or "breeding" drive in those choices? I never had an ounce of regret about my choices. What was her evolutionary drive to pick me? Her ex was a good provider, made money, and he's a decent father, the communication (and implied trust) issues ended up a deal breaker.

[Toro]

My wife and I have been married 28 years this August and I think the keys have been that we are very compatible and that we are both very low maintenance.

I firmly believe that if either party is a high maintenance type person, the marriage won't work.