Omnipotence Doesn't Imply Seeing The Future.

[hashi92]

What I want you to understand, is that when someone says: "*This* (B) happened because *God did it* (A)", he's using logic to explain why that happened.

do you really believe this. would you say its logical if i said this (B) happened because *santa claus* (A).

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, you don't know what logic is. I'll try to define it for you:

Logic is the process through which we understand how reality works. It's the process of cause-consecuence (causality). In other words: "If A, then B."


Some explanation (for the other readers mostly):

Whether your particular reasoning guides you to conclude that a virgin can't give birth or whatever other miracles out there "can't happen" (that they happened in a way that is not logical) is irrelevant. You merely don't understand why these things happened, but if you were to understand them, you'd need logic. You're using logic when you say "God made this happen, that is why this happened".

Every reasoning, every human understanding of reality is logical. Of course, how you apply that logic is what turns some conclusion to be scientifically/rationally correct or not; but all are logical. All are based in logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

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5 entries found for REALITY.
re·al·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-l-t)
n. pl. re·al·i·ties
The quality or state of being actual or true.
One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: “the weight of history and political realities” (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.

Idiom:
in reality


your own definition implies that logic should be based on something factual instead of heresay (God said).

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hashi: Im sorry to say this to you (you will probably be offended), but I think you don't know what logic is.

I'd explain, if only I thought you'd be open to listen. I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

ist it logical to believe

that god created the world in 7 days
a virgin birth
ressurection
walking on water
any miracle
all miracles defy logic

you cant be logical when talking about religon because its not logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

i said nothing that god or religon does is logical. if you can prove logically how any of the above happened i will concede the point.

[soon2bepro]

hashi: Logic (to me) is simply what I said, it's our way to understand reality. Something doesn't have to be real in order for us to try to understand it through logic. One just has to consider that it is.

I think this is pointless as I first said. Rational readers probably grasped the concept by this point.

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
hashi: Logic (to me) is simply what I said, it's our way to understand reality. Something doesn't have to be real in order for us to try to understand it through logic. One just has to consider that it is.

I think this is pointless as I first said. Rational readers probably grasped the concept by this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you waste your time trying to undertand anything thats not real. that statement is not logical.

[guesswest]

soon2bepro: The point of asking about omnipotence defying logic wasn't about the logical consistency or otherwise of that particular proposition, it's necessarily illogical. It was a more fundamental epistemic question - if omnipotence implies no constraint by logic, is that something we can comprehend or address in any way? Saying we can only understand the universe in terms of logic is perhaps true, but saying that the universe only exists within the boundries of logic is assumption. The question then is whether this logical framework we experience as humans could be a perceptual limitation? Thats extremely hard if not impossible to answer, but it's equally hard to refute, therefore we have to accept this idea of something functioning outside of the parameters of logic at least as a conceptual possibility. Such as a god with literal omnipotence.

It's been said that this idea of god not being constained by logic is beyond reason, and I agree with this entirely in so far as understanding anything that would be entailed by that omnipotence. But I'm not entirely convinced that we can't grasp the premise of non-logical operation conceptually, it seems to mean something to us when we hear it right? It's perhaps more that we can't fill out content or envision what that would entail. Epistemology is about examining axioms and assumptions in how we arrive at knowledge, and the idea that everything within the universe must exist within a logical structure is one such assumption.

[soon2bepro]

hashi: reread what I said. I said we have to consider it's real to try to understand it.

guesswest: We may be able to say that something isn't logical, but we wouldn't be able to grasp that concept if we "knew" it, since all our knowledge goes by logic.
I think what we could be able to do here is simply imagining the possibility of there being something we're unable to understand. I'm not sure it's not an illusion though.

I never said that it was correct to assume that everything goes by logic, only that for practical purposes, we have to start from that paradigm if we wanna get anywhere.

[hashi92]

[ QUOTE ]
hashi: reread what I said. I said we have to consider it's real to try to understand it.

guesswest: We may be able to say that something isn't logical, but we wouldn't be able to grasp that concept if we "knew" it, since all our knowledge goes by logic.
I think what we could be able to do here is simply imagining the possibility of there being something we're unable to understand. I'm not sure it's not an illusion though.

I never said that it was correct to assume that everything goes by logic, only that for practical purposes, we have to start from that paradigm if we wanna get anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

i did this and you said i didnt know what logic is. if God is real how can he logically do what the bible says he did. theres no logical explanation therefore i said that God and religon cannot be logical. but to you this is not logical.

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.

Also the inability to see the future perfectly does NOT mean that you can't guarantee your own promses.

If the above two statements don't have a logical flaw that I missed, I hope religious people realize that it is good for them even if their first inclination is otherwise. See why?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you imagine being able to infinately calculate the possible outcomes of every event and then respond to those outcomes, while existing in time, then you would see the future even though it does not exist.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
If you imagine being able to infinately calculate the possible outcomes of every event and then respond to those outcomes, while existing in time, then you would see the future even though it does not exist.



[/ QUOTE ]
Hi AceofSpades, please see Maurile's response in the Heisenberg uncertainty principal thread and tell me if your response remains the same.