Promo raise here? 1/2 LO8

Dallara · #1 01-05-2006, 11:49 AM

Party Poker (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 limps, I raise, blinds and both limpers call.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, 3 call (including me), 1 fold

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets, hero?

At this point, I'm not crazy about my hand, but it has two way potential. I have the aces for high on a paired board with no straights yet possible. 2 low cards are out and I have the nut low draw.

Is this a spot where I should try to promo raise to knock out the two players behind me or is my hand too weak for that? Both players behind me are typical loose low-limit players.

dcasper70 · #2 01-05-2006, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 limps, I raise, blinds and both limpers call.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, 3 call (including me), 1 fold

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets, hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Calls and prays for a low to make up for a poorly played flop.

SB led the flop, OOP, against a PFR. I'm putting him on any number of hands you don't like. Stray 4, 99, [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]draw, etc.
IMO, you have hit a bad flop. Top and bottom 2 on a paired, flushy, high board. ICK!
I think your call is terrible. Muck it or raise. The raise might get you a free pass to the river, cheaper, or at the very least (I hate saying this) it will let you know where you're at.

So you blew it, ok, now you get a mediocre turn, and are pretty much stuck. Quiet MP just woke up, your high is toast, and you have 12 outs to (hopefully) half the pot.
I think you need to call, hoping the blinds come along, and then get lucky when two boats bump the pot.

Alchemist · #3 01-05-2006, 12:41 PM

I think raising here is a bad idea, especially in that you don't really have a hand yet. On the flop, you have the SB betting into 4 players. I would put him on having at least a 4, although I tend to overestimate my opponents. At any rate, his flop bet only got rid of one player so I have to think you're behind for high.

The turn card gives you a nut low draw but not much as far as improving your high hand. I don't think there's any value in promo raising here because you're not going to get a 4 or another low draw to fold here.

Dallara · #4 01-05-2006, 02:50 PM

dcasper:
I'm more inclined to fold than raise on the flop, but I see what you're saying about raising to get a free card here. I wouldn't usually try that with three callers, but it may be worth trying in the future.

Alchemist:
Thanks for your comments. I did call the turn, but afterwards I really thought I would be better off trying to squeeze out the two blinds with a raise. Given that both you and Casper disagree, I'll rethink.

Results:
I called the turn. River was K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so no low. Checked around on the river. BB had a 4 to scoop.
Here were the final hands:
SB shows [ Ts, Tc, Qh, Jc ] two pairs, tens and fours.
BB shows [ Ah, 4s, 6h, Qc ] three of a kind, fours.
MP shows [ 5d, Jd, Kh, Jh ] two pairs, kings and fours.
Hero shows [ Td, Ad, Ac, 2h ] two pairs, aces and fours.

dcasper70 · #5 01-05-2006, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm more inclined to fold than raise on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'd fold it the majority of the time myself, but there are times when the makeup of the table makes raising a viable option...

benwood · #6 01-07-2006, 03:51 AM

This is not the time for a promo raise because if somebody has a 4,he's not going anywhere(maybe in a higher limit tight game,but not these guys).As for the low side,you want to pull,not push,because you're drawing for the nuts.

Bullet_Dodger · #7 01-07-2006, 10:54 AM

Preflop: Fine.
Flop: Raise or fold. I fold this 80% of the time and raise it the other 20%. This is an awful spot to just call. You gain nothing by doing it.
Turn: Just call and pray for half the pot. Not the most enjoyable spot in the world, but I think you can call and see another card here.

benwood · #8 01-07-2006, 01:41 PM

I would not consider raising this flop.It looks like SB has a 4.If so,he could easily re-raise to put pressure on club draws & back-door lows.Then he would most likely lead out on the turn.All your raise would do is cause you to put in a lot of money with a weak hand.

Bullet_Dodger · #9 01-07-2006, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would not consider raising this flop.It looks like SB has a 4.If so,he could easily re-raise to put pressure on club draws & back-door lows.Then he would most likely lead out on the turn.All your raise would do is cause you to put in a lot of money with a weak hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's better than calling, atleast you will narrow the field. And if he re-raises its an easy muck, theres no pressure.

It should be obvious Folding > Raising > Calling.