Another common spot with AK

[Profish2285]

Villain is unknown. Maybe I am just running bad but I am really starting to re think this whole 4 bet shoving thing with AK. I just really hate risking 100 bb to win like 14. If I get called Im usually [censored] so it all just seems meh. The problem is, I cant think of any other reasonable line besides folding. Heres the problem: AK is a hand that gains a lot of value from seeing all 5 cards as youre only going to hit a pair on the flop 33% of the time. This is what makes calling bad, being oop magnifies this a ton. I already gave my reasons why shoving is bad imo, its just risking too much to win too little overall. I guess this leaves us with folding, even though that seems weak tight. I mean I would fold JJ or TT in this position as long as villain isnt a hyper aggro monkey so folding here with AK cant be too incorrect. I would love to hear everyones thoughts.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($72.10)
BB ($17.45)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($67.80)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP ($52.50)</font>
CO ($31.15)
Button ($100.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $6.75</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero....

[matrix]

pushes.

AK is teh nutz preflop - postflop it's not so hot.

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its just risking too much to win too little overall.

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look at any hefty sized pt database.

Do you make 14bb/hand with ANY hand???

[DaycareInferno]

i raise to 17 and call a shove since you can do that with part of your range that won't be able to call a 3bet and won't be priced in to call a shove. it gives you a little bit more flexibility i think.

[Profish2285]

No, I dont make 14bb/hand, not even close. However, we arent making 14bb/hand here either. Are we really folding out enough hands overall to make a push right? I dont think unknowns fold TT or JJ to a shove here, but they probably do fold AQ. When we are getting called we are flipping a coin best case scenario. Other times we are drawing slim or close to dead. (KK and AA respectively) I think at ssnl pushing here is correct as everyone plays alot more aggro, but people at the micros seem passive overall. Given NL50 is definitely much more aggro than NL25, but still. How often does villain have to fold pf for us to show a profit? We cant count on our profit from post flop as it really just isnt there, or at least I dont think so but maybe Im wrong.

[shooot@04]

6 max I would def. re-raise here

[Profish2285]

I think 4 betting a normal amount pf is again incorrect. What do you do when he flat calls you and the flop comes ragged? Or worse, when it comes QJ3 or something like that? Here is one more problem. Do you take this same line with AA and KK or do you 4 bet smaller, or do you flat call? Against a reg if you are only doing this with AK you have to become pretty exploitable I would think. I have been experimenting alot recently with not 4 betting at all and it works well except for with AK.

[bsball8806]

You posted a similar situation with AKo, except last time the UTG raised to 3x bb, and the BTN min raised him. I said raising was the correct play there, but was in the minority. I believe 4 betting is the correct play here, as well. Just because he 3bet you doesn't mean he has AA or KK. An unknown could be doing this with 99, 10's, J's, Q's, AK, or AQ as well. I think calling is a bad play, but folding is even worse.

[Profish2285]

Bsball I think this situation is different as before it was 3 bet before it even got to me. Onto this hand, I agree with you that just because he 3 bets doesnt means its AA or KK. However, once we 4 bet we are narrowing his range down alot further. Of all the hands you just listed the only one we dominate is AQ and Im fairly confident AQ gets mucked by the majority to a huge shove like that.

[corsakh]

I usually just call and see the flop. MP reraise of UTG is pretty tight no matter how you look at it if he has any clue.

[Profish2285]

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I usually just call and see the flop. MP reraise of UTG is pretty tight no matter how you look at it if he has any clue.

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Corsakh so what do you do when you miss 66% of the time? I am guessing c/f but that seems like a huge spew of cash over time. Heres the thing with calling from my perspective. Most of the times you miss so you lose your initial investment. Othertimes you hit, you get a c-bet from villain and there goes the hand. Othertimes you hit and you get no action from villain as his QQ or JJ are now scared. Sometimes you just trapped AQ and can probably take a sizable pot. Lastly, you hit and are still dominated and lose your stack. So either you lose a little most of the time, win a little sometimes, win a stack Id say once in a while but definitely less than the first two scenarios, and sometimes you lose huge. Even assuming that when you stack villain counteracts when villain stacks you, the first scenarios put you in the red. Sorry if this sounds confusing, Im not sure how else to put this.