limpers & button

[Buzz-cp]

I've been wondering about pre-flop play from the button on some of these hands when there are already several limpers at LPP tables. I'm also weaning myself off the hand charts. The hands below are those I would be raising with with less limpers, but they leave me wondering about their EV against many players. So, I am left uncertain whether to raise or just call. Please forgive me if I'm missing the most obvious play--I'm still learning!

(all 9 handed)
--------------------
Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero ???.
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Hand 2:
Preflop: Hero is button with 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.
--------------------
Hand 4:
Preflop: Hero is button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero ???.



Edit: typo

[numeri]

I know there are players who will say to raise all four. Personally, I think hand 3 is the weakest.

Hand 1: I just call, but I've been called a weak-tighty.

Hand 2: This one could be a raise.

Hand 3: It could be because I suck post-flop and can't let go, but I think I just limp this.. The problem is the possibility of domination from a passively played AJ, AQ, or even AK.

Hand 4: Definite raise.

[tehox]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: It could be because I suck post-flop and can't let go, but I think I just limp this.. The problem is the possibility of domination from a passively played AJ, AQ, or even AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is an argument for folding vs. calling/raising, not really for call vs. raise. I would fold here if one or two of the limpers were tight but had low PFR %.

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]

(all 9 handed)
--------------------
Hand 1:
Preflop: Hero is button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 limpers, Hero calls

You need to hit a seven to win this. Calling will bring in many high cards that can make top pair and pay you off. Raising isn't going to make any of them fold. You folding would be a sin against nature.
--------------------
Hand 2:
Preflop: Hero is button with 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero calls

Beautiful. Suited connectors, relatively big. Will win you a lot of money if you hit. Shouldn't raise, can't fold. Folding would be like stealing from orphans.
--------------------
Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero folds/raises

You could make second-best here a lot of times. If you're going to play, you'd have to raise. Fold might be the best play -- depending on your reads. Calling makes Baby Jesus cry.
--------------------
Hand 4:
Preflop: Hero is button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero calls.

[i]If this was KQs raise. KJs is good and worth a call for its good suited/moderate connected/moderate big card value. Raising is better than folding. Folding is like Keanu Reeves in "A Walk In The Clouds"[i]


[/ QUOTE ]

[Buzz-cp]

I didn't consider folding any of them. Maybe AT is a raise or fold.

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't consider folding any of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank goodness! I know some people who would.

[Shillx]

Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 limpers, Hero folds/raises

You could make second-best here a lot of times. If you're going to play, you'd have to raise. Fold might be the best play -- depending on your reads. Calling makes Baby Jesus cry.

Well I was going to goto bed until I read this.... [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

I sometimes like these types of posts more then HH posts since they can show fundimental flaws in ones thinking. You tell someone to raise J9s after 4 limpers and he will do it all day long. But give him T8s or JTs or QTs and he has no idea what to do because he doesn't understand the underlying concepts behind the play.

Anytime you are on the button and have 4 limpers in front of you it is never a raise or fold scenario. There are essentially 4 times when you should raise or fold preflop:

1) You are opening the pot beyond the 1st few positions.

2) You are looking to isolate a bad player (or players) with a weak hand.

3) You are in the SB and are facing an open raise with no coldcallers in the middle.

4) Someone else has raised and it comes to you with no coldcallers.

Why is this not raise or fold?

Anything we do in this spot is for value. If a raise has value, we should probably take it. If a raise doesn't have value, we have to decide if a limp has value (remember a fold is 0 EV). So if ATo has enough value to raise X% of the time (where X is significant), that same hand should never be folded under similar conditions. If you are in a spot where you would sometimes raise (and not raise as a bluff or semibluff) you should call with it those times that you don't raise. The raise doesn't do anything else for us besides build a pot in this case. A raise isn't going to change the dyanmic of the hand in terms of how many people will be taking a flop (or what players will be taking it). If we still had people left behind us it might be a different issue (or if some of the limpers would fold for one more bet), but both calling and raising will produce the same result (other then the pot being 2x as big). So if you feel like your ATo has enough equity to raise 50% of the time, it clearly has enough to call the other 50%. Notice how just calling doesn't put you in a bad spot postflop as compared to raising. If you are outkicked in a limped pot, you are going to be outkicked in a raised pot. That is just poker.

Notice how this is much different then say

UTG limps, UTG+2 limps, Hero has ATo and...?

Now you can make a much better case for a raise/fold.

Brad

[tehox]

I think calling >> raising with A10o in this situation. Our PF equity edge is not that big, it doesn't play well in big multiway pots, and I really really want to be bet into on a ten high flop.

[cammac]

Hand 1: Not a great multiway hand unless you flop a set. I like to call.

Hand 2: Suited, connected, biggish. You can go a long way with a hand like this when it hits. Prefer 5 limpers for a raise, so I probably call, but if the table is playing any two, go for it.

Hand 3: Susceptible to domination. You probably want to raise against 4 limpers but calling isn't the end of the world.

Hand 4: Raise.

[davelin]

1 - Raise
2 - Raise
3 - I'd consider folding this before raising. I'd probably call.
4 - I'd raise this with any number of limpers