Kings vs paired door card

[frappeboy]

This is a hand I played last night.. All the players are very loose. I'll post my comments later.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (3.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (7.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (11.85 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___folds

Total pot: (14.85 BB)

[jon_1van]

Meh,
You probably won't be making a big mistake if you fold or call on 5th. The pot is bigish, and you're getting multiway action. However, because you're getting multiway action your hopes for Ks up aren't spectacular (I'm guessing you put seat 2 on a wider range than just trip 3s)


I'm not a real big fan of the call because you don't see any other 3s. I don't think the call is a serious mistake, but I don't think its best.

Once you get a 2nd pair you CANNOT fold 6th because now you have 7 outs to beat trips (KJJJJTT)

On 7th the pot is big, you may win, call.

[MichaelOar]

Jon,

I hate calling here. Assuming the bettor doesn't have trips, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of winning the pot if you raise here. If he does have trips, you're likely going to get 3-bet, so you at least know where the heck you're at (I don't think most players are tricky enough to 3-bet here without trips, and I think that even 2pr isn't likely to 3-bet here). By calling, you're letting the whole field stay in cheaply with their flukely draws. I also wonder what your plan is for the rest of the hand? Call all the way down unimproved? Fold 7th without 2pr? That can't be right.

I thought raising was the best, followed closely by a fold. I think calling is terrible here---and I'm pretty damned weak!

Michael

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
Jon,

I hate calling here. Assuming the bettor doesn't have trips, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of winning the pot if you raise here. If he does have trips, you're likely going to get 3-bet, so you at least know where the heck you're at (I don't think most players are tricky enough to 3-bet here without trips, and I think that even 2pr isn't likely to 3-bet here). By calling, you're letting the whole field stay in cheaply with their flukely draws. I also wonder what your plan is for the rest of the hand? Call all the way down unimproved? Fold 7th without 2pr? That can't be right.

I thought raising was the best, followed closely by a fold. I think calling is terrible here---and I'm pretty damned weak!

Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Which street is "here"

2. (Every thing regarding 5th street)
Do you realize that raising might not even clear the field?
Do you realize that you are very likely behind here?
Do you realize that you'll make your straight about 1 in 7 times?
Do you realize that you're hand is vunerable to a redraw?
Do you realize that no other 3 is showing?
Do you realize Ks up isn't nearly "a lock" in 5 way action?
Do you realize a solid draw facing 2-bets cold can't make a big mistake by calling or folding?
Do you realize raising forces a slim draw to correctly fold?


Do you have a plan for when you "know" seat 2 has trips?


I HATE raising 5th. There are times when a good hand doesn't get help, and a weak hand does. When this happens, espically in multiway action, just fold because Ks up won't be very strong in a showdown. There is no point chasing for a medium strength showdown hand when there are 4 other opponents. In this example, there is only 1 scary board, and our hero has more hope than just Ks up, so itsn't as bad as it could be, but hacking your way through the field with a bowie knife just to get shot in the head at showdown doesn't make any sense.

[MichaelOar]

So what do you want to do? You said early it's close between folding and calling. I think it's close between folding and raising, with calling not even being a contender. I can't think of a single good reason to just call here.

Michael

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you want to do? You said early it's close between folding and calling. I think it's close between folding and raising, with calling not even being a contender. I can't think of a single good reason to just call here.

Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I really have no strong preference btw folding and calling. I think folding is slightly better. But I'd probably call in the heat of the moment because I'm a sucker for action.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I understand your desire to raise. I used to play alot of 3-6 where multiway pots are a bit more common than 5-10. And I used to raise frequently, it very rarely worked, and it was very expensive.

[Jeffage]

5th is whatever to me. I call here too since two pair is likely here and you have a gutshot as well as other drawing opportunities. I consider sixth street to be an automatic raise - try to get heads-up with the monkey and give yourself a better chance of winning the hand. Your board will likely protect you from being reraised. Just my take.

Jeff

[SimonAllan]

If you want to play the hand, I think you need to try to narrow the field somewhere.

I think it's probably spewing, but has anyone considered a raise on 5th. It could well get the pot heads-up, and may persuade seat 2 to check 6th, if he reads you for a made straight or if he doesn't have the trips

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
but has anyone considered a raise on 5th

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me cringe.

[SimonAllan]

I'm not saying that I would raise, but I think you can argue that it's a reasonable move. If you call 5th, you'll probably call 6th, and the river with any improvement (most likely to kings up). If you raise 5th, which is likely to eliminate most of the field, you may well get to check behind on sixth (unless you catch a jack or king), so going to showdown would be no more expensive than in the call/call/call line.

I just don't like the passive line, given that you are more likely to make kings up than trip kings or the straight, and kings up is very often a second-best hand in this sort of pot, whether seat 2 has trips or not.