The Value of Suited Aces in NL Hold 'Em

[Moniker]

The most tempting hand for me to play in MP to LP is a suited Ace (for this discussion I'm talking about when my other card is 10 or lower). I know that Ace-rag is a horrible trap hand and that the probability of making the flush is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6% but it is such a tempting hand and can make such a monstrous pot. I typically limp with my suited Ace and fold to an appreciable raise.

How frequently and in what position should I play the suited Ace? Always limp pre-flop? Any general guidance for pre-flop strategy would be appreciated.

[mliew]

Suited Ace-rag can be played from any position but obviously your goal with is to see the flop for as cheap as possible. The problem with limping with the Ace-rag is that you're inviting someone to raise behind you or from the blinds in which case you're gonna have to fold. I like to mix it up by sometimes minraising in hopes that I will discourage those behind me from raising since nobody has shown any aggression. Of course if someone open raises in front of you or reraises behind you then you muck.

[hitMySet]

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Suited Ace-rag can be played from any position

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I disagree with this. It is much more profitable to play them in late position only. If you hit your draw, you can call rather than check-call, and if you hit an A, there is less of a chance of a bigger kicker acting behind you.

[ohnonotthat]

If your opponents call big bets far more often than they should you can play Ax/s but play it for the minimum.

If your opponents fold to big bets far more often than they should you can play (obviously your approach to the hand will be opposite of above).

If your opponents play reasonably well these hands have little value anywhere other than on or near the button.

If you play extremely well relative to the opponents at any particular table you will give up almost nothing if you play alot of hands preflop for the minimum; it's post-flop where these [questionable] hands get expensive.

- Others can give you much more detailed advice; this was an "in case nobody else responds" answer.

[deadeyed1]

I would play the small suited ace only when it is cheap to see the flop in comparison to my stack and when i am in late position in an unraised pot. If you limp in from early position you frequently face a raise from the button or cut off point and then have to fold. Also, remember, you don't really want to hit the ace, you will get into trouble. Remember why you entered the pot in the first place.

[AA Suited]

"The Value of Suited Aces in NL Hold 'Em"

You rang?

[pmdvert18]

Lets just say that you play Ax suited from any postion and that you are willing to call small raises (min or 2 time the BB). At that point you have to think your A is no good if it hits and now the goal is to essentially hit a 3-outer to make 2 pair. If its the flush you are after then like you said before it doesnt hit enough to make it worth it.

I like playing Ax suited in late position for cheap or when in a 10 max table with a raise and a few callers in front of me, other than that throw it away.

The times you do fold, pay attention to the hand and see how many times you think you would have won with best hand or taken it down with a large bet.

[elmitchbo]

suited aces are GOOD hands. i always here people say that you shouldn't play them, or if you do then you have to always fear a better ace. i disagree on both points.

a brief quiz from the EV charts...which hand has more EV preflop?

A9s or 99?
A4s or 44?
ATs 0r QJs?
ATs or T9s?
A5s or 66?
ATs or AQo?
A4s or 87s?


i hope you picked the suited ace everytime. suited aces are the 3rd best type of starting hand behind big pairs and big broadway cards. they're better hands than almost all small to medium pairs and almost all suited connectors.

if you are going to play any style other than an absolute rock 'i only raise with AA and KK' type of poker you need to play suited Aces.

i say play and occasionally raise with them from MP and LP, and call a decent raise if you limp. if an ace comes on the flop don't be afraid to bet out with no kicker.... aces don't grow on trees, so if you weren't reraised before the flop there is no reason to think you're beat.

the dailt pursuit of LAG mastery.
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Jimbo]

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suited aces are GOOD hands. i always here people say that you shouldn't play them, or if you do then you have to always fear a better ace. i disagree on both points.

a brief quiz from the EV charts...which hand has more EV preflop?

A9s or 99? 99
A4s or 44? 44
ATs 0r QJs? ATs
ATs or T9s? ATs
A5s or 66? 66
ATs or AQo? AQo
A4s or 87s? A4s


i hope you picked the suited ace everytime. suited aces are the 3rd best type of starting hand behind big pairs and big broadway cards. they're better hands than almost all small to medium pairs and almost all suited connectors.

if you are going to play any style other than an absolute rock 'i only raise with AA and KK' type of poker you need to play suited Aces.

i say play and occasionally raise with them from MP and LP, and call a decent raise if you limp. if an ace comes on the flop don't be afraid to bet out with no kicker.... aces don't grow on trees, so if you weren't reraised before the flop there is no reason to think you're beat.

the dailt pursuit of LAG mastery.
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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It is pretty obvious you are confused.

Jimbo

[12AX7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
suited aces are GOOD hands. i always here people say that you shouldn't play them, or if you do then you have to always fear a better ace. i disagree on both points.

a brief quiz from the EV charts...which hand has more EV preflop?

A9s or 99? 99
A4s or 44? 44
ATs 0r QJs? ATs
ATs or T9s? ATs
A5s or 66? 66
ATs or AQo? AQo
A4s or 87s? A4s


i hope you picked the suited ace everytime. suited aces are the 3rd best type of starting hand behind big pairs and big broadway cards. they're better hands than almost all small to medium pairs and almost all suited connectors.

if you are going to play any style other than an absolute rock 'i only raise with AA and KK' type of poker you need to play suited Aces.

i say play and occasionally raise with them from MP and LP, and call a decent raise if you limp. if an ace comes on the flop don't be afraid to bet out with no kicker.... aces don't grow on trees, so if you weren't reraised before the flop there is no reason to think you're beat.

the dailt pursuit of LAG mastery.
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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It is pretty obvious you are confused.

Jimbo

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Let's beat this one up a little? Elmitchbo seems to be saying he has mathematical evidence they are decent hands. Jimbo seems to be saying the opposite?

My self I've done some "No Foldem" sims from heads up to 6 opponents at a point when I was considering propping. Hence I foresaw lots of short handed games in my future.

It seemed to me people were playing "Any Ace, Any King, Any Pair, and Any Suited Connector" which I modeled. Actually I'd swear it's any two suited, but OK a minor point.

My goal was to identify which hands won more than thier fair share against X opponents. The thought being that since each opponent has to put in a bet for every bet I put in, winning more than your fair share is a good starting place to select starting hands.

I found the following ranges won more than thier fair share:

Heads Up AKs-A4s
3 Handed AKs-A5s
4 Handed AKs-A6s
5 Handed AKs-A7s
6 Handed AKs-A8s
7 Handed AKs-A9s

Interestingly the range gets tighter with more opponents. Exactly the opposite of Kxs and Qxs etc. Not sure what accounts for that. I didn't store the breakdown of winning hands, but probably should have in retrospect, so we could see what accounts for most of the EV.

However, seems to me the assumption here is that you are going to the river every time, as are your opponents. So perhaps a middle of the road range might me AKs-A6s?


Another set of observations. AKs actually loses EV against more opponents. But AQs-AJs gains EV against more opponents. ATs seems to have a small sweet spot at about 3-4 opponents and A9s and below seem to lose EV with more opponents. Strangely suggesting that we want to play the smaller Axs heads up?

Not sure what to make of that. This is the first time I've seriously looked at those values in this spreadsheet in some time.

Perhaps my math or simulation softare is FUBAR?

In any event, seems more info is required to decide what the best line of play is for each case.

Comment?

P.S. Elmitchbo, where are your numbers coming from? I just spot checked my work and found 44 had greater EV than A4s and same for 55/A5s.