Pushing out trips when I and another guy have a flush?

[Nielsio]

I turn the nut-flush. I can put Doug on a turned flush also, but there's a third guy, who showed a little strenght on the flop but slows down when 3-flush hits. The river is an easy fold, but I could have played it quite differently. What happened is I wanted to check-raise the other flush huge on the river. Obviously, a scare-card could come off but I'd like to play these multiway hands passively, because I know it's almost impossible to get two pairs and trips out of the hand, so I'd like to wait to the river. Same thing when I hit trips on a straightish board multiway. I tend to let cards come off and hope for a boat because there's little chance of raising straight-draws out of the hand (or knowing if they already have a straight or not). So I gamble a bit by letting cheap cards come off.
In the case of the flush-hand there's about a 25% chance of the board pairing.
In retrospect I could positively put Doug on a flush and could have put the turn all-in (or similar), as last to act. I can also just build the pot earlier because a paired board can scare the other flush, but I don't like the idea of the third guy sticking around and facing a tough decision with a big pot. If the board wouldn't have paired here I would have taken a lot of Doug's money. So what way would you prefer and do you guys have success pushing trips out?

Mook is 40/2.2/1.31 loose/passive/passive fish

Seat 1: Nielsio6 [ K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] ($40.50 in chips)
Seat 2: doug88doug ($50.65 in chips)
Seat 4: ianmcc0 ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 7: jj Mook ($52.75 in chips)
Seat 8: khammer6 ($49.25 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
Nielsio6 posts blind ($0.25), doug88doug posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
ianmcc0 calls $0.50, jj Mook calls $0.50, khammer6 folds, Nielsio6 calls $0.25, doug88doug checks.

FLOP [ 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Nielsio6 checks, doug88doug checks, ianmcc0 checks, jj Mook bets $1, Nielsio6 calls $1, doug88doug calls $1, ianmcc0 folds.

TURN [ J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Nielsio6 checks, doug88doug bets $2, jj Mook calls $2, Nielsio6 calls $2.

RIVER [ J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Nielsio6 checks, doug88doug bets $5, jj Mook bets $15, Nielsio6 folds, doug88doug calls $10.

SHOWDOWN<font color="white">
jj Mook shows [ 3S,3H ]
doug88doug mucks cards [ 5D,4D ]
jj Mook wins $40.

SUMMARY
Dealer: khammer6
Pot: $41 | Rake: $1
Nielsio6 loses $3.50
doug88doug loses $18.50
ianmcc0 loses $0.50
jj Mook bets $18.50, collects $40, net $21.50
khammer6 loses $0</font>

[b0on]

Your play was v. transparent in my opinion, and way too passive.

But if the donks are going to pay you off anyway it doesn't really matter...

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
Your play was v. transparent in my opinion, and way too passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're half-right. It's definitely too passive, but it's certainly not transparent. When someone calls preflop, check/calls the flop, check/calls the turn, check/folds the river, I do NOT put them on the nut flush.

Here's where I think OP went wrong: in reasoning through the turn smooth-call, he forgot about all the scare cards that could fall on the river. Not the scare cards for himself -- he spotted those. I mean the scare cards for his opponents. If another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] drops, he'll get zero action from both of his opponents. None. Why? Because they couldn't possibly have the nut flush OR the second-nut flush: hero has both of those cards in his hand. If he wakes up suddenly on a fourth diamond and bets strongly, he'll fold them both out. If he tries for a check-raise on the river, he could easily get it checked through behind him. Also, hero loses out on someone with a draw talking themselves into paying him off. KQ or 42 or 65 or QT or something crazy may decide to take a shot at a gutshot, especially if they have a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in their hand, too. On the river, they'll know they've missed, and they'll have no incentive to keep shooting.

Hero's best chance of getting this pot is not to wait until the river. It's ALSO not to wait until the turn. If hero semibluffs this flop, he can take it down immediately. I'd lead this flop for a pot-sized bet (about $1.50). If I'm called in multiple places, I'm leading the turn for a pot-sized bet, too. I don't mind slowing down on the river, but by "slowing down" I mean a half-pot bet or so.

Oh, and if someone raises me on this flop, I'm three-betting BIG, ideally all-in. I do NOT mess around with great draws, especially OOP. It's just too easy to get bluffed off a winner later on.

Hero's move looks like a money-saver here, and in this situation it was. However, the vast majority of the time his nut flush is going to be good, and by playing this passively, he guarantees himself the smallest win possible. That's a very bad choice. For more information on why you need to play this hard, consider Sklansky and Miller's article in this month's 2+2 magazine. This is a big hand. Play it for a big pot.

[nuggetz87]

I think on the turn you needed to bet 3bet big to get the most value, instead of check/calling :/

[ahnuld]

many mistakes but good river fold.

Raise or fold preflop, limping geenrally suck unless you play LAG.

Lead flop, youll take it down often enough and get action when you make your flush. CR flop if you think he weak or will fold. Lead turn or CR turn if you dont like leading. Get some money in there man!

[thehof]

[ QUOTE ]


Oh, and if someone raises me on this flop, I'm three-betting BIG, ideally all-in. I do NOT mess around with great draws, especially OOP. It's just too easy to get bluffed off a winner later on.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think 3-betting big is the way to go here. Villain had a set and is favored to win (even tptk is favored to win over the flush, some donks will call a big bet with that). I think 3-betting in this situation would be a -EV play.

I definitely bet the flop or check raise and if I get re-raised I'd perhaps smooth call depending on the odds I'm getting, and get out to further aggression if I don't hit.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think 3-betting big is the way to go here. Villain had a set and is favored to win

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I must be misunderstanding you. Are you really suggesting that leading the flop is a bad idea because of all the possible hands our three opponents could have, 2.48% of them are sets, against which we've only got a 25.6% chance of winning?

[ QUOTE ]
(even tptk is favored to win over the flush, some donks will call a big bet with that).

[/ QUOTE ]

And here you seem to be saying that we should worry about being dominated by AK, despite the fact that nobody raised preflop and that we'd actually win 37.2% of the time against this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3-betting in this situation would be a -EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're seeing monsters under the bed, and I think you need to get much more aggressive with these strong draws to winning hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely bet the flop or check raise and if I get re-raised I'd perhaps smooth call depending on the odds I'm getting, and get out to further aggression if I don't hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've just described exactly why pushing the flop is a good strategy: instead of getting one draw at the nut flush, you give yourself two shots at it AND the added folding equity that pushing gives. When you're up against AA, this is a losing strategy, true; however, when you're facing AQ, AJ, AT, A9, A8, A6, A5, A4, A2, K7, and all the other one-pair hands that are currently ahead of you, how likely are they to survive a three-bet push? Realize that there are FAR more ways that someone could have one pair than two pair or a set, and realize that a flop raise does NOT always mean the absolute nuts.

Playing your strong draws as strong hands typically gives you huge windfalls on those hands, and also boosts your returns on the hands where you actually flop a monster. Reconsider your timid stance here -- you may find it a profitable change.

[SinkRox]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise or fold preflop, limping geenrally suck unless you play LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll only raise qq+ from the blinds.. unless im making a rare preflop steal from within the blinds. I dont want to build a big pot where ill be majorly dissadvantaged postflop, OOP.

Pokey your playing style sounds like BOW's ('best-online-winner' mahatma) of pushing AI at the flop with strong hands and strong draws + some not so strong draws. Id love to try and learn this style but dont have the balls and would probly hate the ultra high varience. Also I think this play is more suited to mid stakes + where theres more scared money/fold equity.

[Maulik]

pokey,

I don't like three betting the flop. Lead/call is good, I don't want to run the board against Ax or a stronger hand for my stack.

[aces_dad]

Ahnuld - he just completed after 2 limpers, you still raise this from the SB?