Alternative energy and the Automobile Industry

[Actual God]

Everyone knows the auto industry lobbies heavily against emissions standards dot dot dot et cetera...

From a policy perspective, what are some potential productive ways to promote alternative or renewable energy without harming the automobile industry?

Subsidizing hybrid research and development?

That's all I can think of, cuz I'm a tard.

[Nonfiction]

As oil and gasoline prices continue to rise, the market will take care of it. No government intervention is needed. Look at the huge success of Hybrid cars (although the government did give $$$ to people who bought them, which was not needed, and the cars actually get similar or worse gas mileage compared to other small cars), or ethanol cars in Brazil.

[DblBarrelJ]

I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to.

The fact still stands, the % of Americans who possess the mechanical knowledge and time to build their own transportation remains a very small number, so Americans are going to buy cars from someone.

Edited to add: The reason the automakers lobby against emission standards is simply because they don't want to retool the factories, however, the time will come when the consumer demand for alternative fuels will outweigh the costs of retooling the factories, and it will be done.

No government intervention needed.

[BCPVP]

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I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to.

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From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large.

Electric cars of some kind seem more like the future than ethanol (w/o gov't intervention distorting the market, obv). I sure wouldn't mind driving something that looks like the Tesla Roadster.

[DblBarrelJ]

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I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to.

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From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large.

Electric cars of some kind seem more like the future than ethanol (w/o gov't intervention distorting the market, obv). I sure wouldn't mind driving something that looks like the Tesla Roadster.

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There has been some pretty serious damage done to the enviroment from electric cars. link

Imagine what will happen when these cars outnumber normal combustion engine powered cars and this factories are set up all over America.

This is why I think Ethanol will ultimately win out.

[BCPVP]

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I think Ethanol could be the future, and I don't think alternative energy really damages the automobile industry, no matter what energy source we as Americans eventually turn to.

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From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large.

Electric cars of some kind seem more like the future than ethanol (w/o gov't intervention distorting the market, obv). I sure wouldn't mind driving something that looks like the Tesla Roadster.

[/ QUOTE ]

There has been some pretty serious damage done to the enviroment from electric cars. link

Imagine what will happen when these cars outnumber normal combustion engine powered cars and this factories are set up all over America.

This is why I think Ethanol will ultimately win out.

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You think ethanol will win because the Prius sucks? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] The Prius isn't even an electric car; it's a hybrid.

[CORed]

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From what I've read, ethanol seems like a scam. We can't seem to make it in such a way as to be energy positive and the amount of land needed to switch from gasoline to ethanol would be incredibly large.

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Ethanol from sugarcane seems to be fairly effective in Brazil. The ethanol from corn production being done in the US is a complete boondogle, courtesy of the farm and agribusiness lobbies (ADM et al). Depending on whose numbers you believe, the ethanol from corn scheme produces approximately zero net energy. It takes approximately as much energy to grow the corn, ferment it and distill it as you get from burning the ethanol. Where does that energy come from? Oil gas and coal, mostly. Obviously this would have no economic viability without massive government subsidies.

Another problem is that a lot of agricultural production is being diverted to it, putting upward pressure on food prices. This illustrates a fundamental problem with just about any form biomass energy production. It's going to compete for limited agricultural resources with food, fiber or lumber. IMO, photovoltaic or solar-thermal energy on desert land is a much more viable renewable energy strategy than biomass. However, biomass using waste materials (use the corn for food and the stalks for energy), may have some benefit, if the kinks can be worked out. IMO, methane from biomass(possibly convereted to methanol to fuel cars), is likely more viable than ethanol for this.

[Moseley]

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Ethanol from sugarcane seems to be fairly effective in Brazil.

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"One farm for the local village probably makes sense," he says. "But if you have a 100,000 acre plantation exporting biomass on contract to Europe , that's a completely different story. From one square meter of land, you can get roughly one watt of energy. The price you pay is that in Brazil alone you annually damage a jungle the size of Greece ."

I've come to the conclusion that if we're smart about it, nuclear power plants may be the lesser of the evils when we compare them with coal-fired plants and their impact on global warming," he says. "We're going to pay now or later. The question is what's the smallest price we'll have to pay?"

Reference: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0329132436.htm

[adios]

Actually U.S. automakers have been lobbying for legislation friendly to flex fuel alternatives where 85% of the fuel used is ethanol. U.S. imposes I believe a $0.54 per gallon excise tax on imported ethanol that is much more effeciently produced than corn based ethanol from the U.S. Eliminate the $0.54 a gallon excise tax and you'd probably see more interest in usage. Many other issues that I don't feel like getting into now regarding ethanol ussage. Probably covered by others and certainly in other threads over the years.

[Jamougha]

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Will we see airplanes driven by more environmental healthy engine's any time soon?

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Maybe a factor of two decrease in fuel consumption based on the stuff they have on the drawing board. In fact they've just dusted off a bunch of old designs. Most of the tech was already there, it just needed something to make the manufacturers take a risk.

No way around needing kerosine however. But there are ways of making synthetic oil from organic substances; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization