[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't mathematics govern every interaction in the universe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mathematics describes every interaction in the universe. It governs nothing. Human mathematics is just our way of representing relationships. There's a difference between a pattern and our conception of a pattern.

Of course, it's rational to accept that the patterns we observe in nature are "real" patterns, that they represent some kind of underlying reality, but what that reality "is" we will never know.

In terms of the theist and his argument, it's something of a red herring. After all, he never explained why beauty in the world implies the existence of any sort of supernatural being. Even if it did, he would have a long way to go in order to establish that being as the God he believes in. He's relying on an appeal to emotion combined with fuzzy terminology and assumptions.

We see the universe as beautiful - does that mean it "is" beautiful? We see the natural world as beautiful, but that's the world in which the human species evolved - if we have the capacity to sense beauty, of course we're going to sense it in our natural environment. Simple rules can result in complex and intricate systems - look at emergence, or fractals. Creation doesn't imply theism at all. Even an inherent meaning in the universe doesn't imply theism. And theism doesn't imply any specific religion. Much of the universe is barren and empty - only a tiny part of it is "beautiful" in the traditional sense. Humans can create order out of randomness, and beauty out of chaos, in their own minds. We know only a very tiny bit about how our universe works and even how big it is - we aren't justified in suggesting any conclusions about its ultimate nature. If the universe is "too beautiful not to have been created," then is God ugly? If God is also beautiful, then he must have been created too - assuming that beauty must, indeed, be created.

And so on. You can adapt refutations of similarly spurious arguments, attack the absence of logic directly, or offer alternative explanations. Just don't let him get you on the defensive - his argument doesn't affect your position at all, you can shrug it off if need be. Treat his words as what they are, empty rhetoric, and don't take it upon yourself to answer the questions of the universe - he's the one who claims to have all the answers, you can say "I don't know" all you please without undermining your position.