[Goater]

OK, last post on this subject.

[ QUOTE ]
Civilian housing is not a buffer!! The expansion of settlements reduces the security of Israelis by increasing the border. The settlements are a jigsaw on the West Bank, creating a very long interface for mischief.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont agree and neither do many security experts in Israel or elsewhere. I know you will say that this view is political, but there are many, many reasons why settlements effectively buffer Israeli cities. The huge increase in kassam attacks after the Gaza withdrawal is one display but there are many more. The bulk of settlement blocks are not a "jigsaw" and in any case, a final settlement will have to address this problem.

[ QUOTE ]
Even more important than the inaccuracy that Nicky points out is this: any expansion at all demonstrates Israel is not serious about peace. If the Israelis favoring a real settlement had political power, the settlements would be shrinking to prove Israel is serious about peace (something no one in the world believes except US and Israeli Zionists).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have addressed what you consider an inaccuracy. And again, natural growth is inevitable and unstoppable. More people are being born than dying. The growth is largely in population, not area. In any case, Oslo did not specify a settlement freeze. The area is "disputed" due to its occupation in a defensive war (again, im sure you dont even agree with that statement). As no Palestinian state ever existed on that land, 2 people "dispute" it. I have already stated that I support a genuine 2 state solution.

Israel has repeatedly demonstrated real commitment (eg: Gaza withdrawal). I dont think you realise, despite your views, how genuinely painful and difficult this was for the government and the country. Its hard to imagine that just over 15 years ago, the average Israeli never even considered leaving these territories.

The Israelis favouring a settlement do have real political power, thats why they voted Rabin, Barak and Kadima. You believe that a settlement has not occured due to Israeli objection, I believe it is because of Palestinian objection. We have already discussed this point. Im not sure what sinister group you believe holds all the power in Israel, but you are seeing things that are not there.

The "cantonisation" issue would be addressed and resolved in a final settlement and I disagree with your description of the Oslo and preceeding plans in this regard.

[ QUOTE ]
The wall seals it. The wall makes the cantonization of the WB literally set in stone. Growing settlements and a wall are absolute proof of Israeli intentions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering when you would bring up the "wall". Its a temporary measure (disliked by the settlers by the way) and was reluctantly constructed after waves of suicide bombers murdered over a thousand israeli civilians inside Israel proper. Israeli courts have repeatedly upheld challenges to the route and forced changes.

[ QUOTE ]
If it were a security wall, it would follow the green line -- the short distance between points -- rather than reaching out fingers here and there to seize the water and other resources.

[/ QUOTE ]

This myth can be repeated a thousand times, but it will never be true. I wish the wall wasnt necessary, but after a thousand dead civilians in hotels, pizza shops, cafes and busses, it is. Do you have another explanation as to why there were virtually no suicide attacks out of Gaza (basically walled) and why the rate of successful attacks from the west bank has decreased so dramatically after the wall and continued security measures by the IDF (despite a steady stream of attempts)? No military solution eh?

[ QUOTE ]
But the 90% offer was so insulting

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds really insulting! In the real world, the Palestinians are never going to get 100% - thats why they call it negotiation. I have addressed why I think Arafat never wanted a 2 state solution - I await your answers as to what he did to prepare his people for such a compromise after decades of commitment to the whole of Israel being Palestinian.

[ QUOTE ]
And this business about Hamas committed to the destruction of Israel is dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy for you to say. For those that live there it is a serious threat. After conventional warfare proved spectacularly ineffective at driving the Jews into the sea, the staged plan was formed. With events in Syria, Lebanon and Iran proceeding as they are, Israels existential problems are hardly a daydream.

[ QUOTE ]
If the Palestinians get a real state and the occupation ends, there will be desperately few still tilting at windmills.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But i dont think that Fatah or Hamas want (or ever wanted) a 2 state solution and therefore their whole raison d' etre would have been at odds with a solution. From my perspective, you are saying that once Hamas or Fatah make a deal that is totally opposed to their very essence, there would be noone seriously advocating/working towards the destruction of Israel. Thats why they would never make a deal. (By the way, I do think that there are elements of fatah who would now want and follow through with a settlement, but they are so utterly weak and lacking in pulic support that this is a virtual impossibility).

[ QUOTE ]
The conflict stems from the destruction of Palestine, not the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean "the land that was previously Jordanian/Egyptian"?

As I said, thats the last post I will make in this thread about this subject, but I do genuinely appreciate you taking the time to have this discussion and the way it has been conducted. Cheers.