[surfdoc]

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Said Josh: "If you have any postflop ability at all, this is a raise. If you just sit and wait until you make your hand, even on the button, you should probably muck, or maybe limp."

Said Clark: "I just like dead money and position on retards in raised pots."

Said Josh: "Me too. Note that this means our cards don't matter!"

I don't think any of us here "just" sit and wait until we make our hand. But limit poker in its mid-stakes variety, is very much a sitting and waiting game. To use a Sklansky analogy, if we shoot 78 there are a lot of guys who shoot higher just waiting to give us their money. If we try to make an eagle by going over the water when a birdie, or even a par (ands sometimes a bogey) will get the job done, we might end up in the water often enough to screw things up. Even Tiger tees off with a 5-iron when prudent to do so.

So methinks you go to far, although methinks you had tongue in cheek to at least some degree and were engaging in hyperbole, at least to some degree, as well. It is still true today, as it was many years ago when Mason wrote it, that our opponents wouldn't fold as much if they knew how often we were betting with hands they wouldn't bet with. But it is also true that the reason why we win is that we lose less money on the hands we lose than poorer players and win more money on the hands we win.

I've always felt that 2+2ers in general didn't give enough consideration to the value of eliminating opponents whenever possible. Clark puts it succinctly here: dead money, just you and two players who play worse than you, you with position on them, what could be finer? That's probably why I was a charter member of the preflop raise-or-fold camp. And I'm in the raise camp on this hand. But none of this means that our cards don't matter. What could be finer? You with A-A.

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Great post Andy. I was following you right up until the conclusion which seems to contradict the rest.