[Josh W]

I don't want to put words in peoples mouths, but it surely looks to me like this question is divided amongst lines that have nothing to do with this hand. Those who think about poker, playing the players, and not just playing the cards, advocate raising. Those who think that only the cards matter advocate limping.

In this hand, a very solid 2+2er was in the SB and I was on the button. I limped, and afterwards I asked him about it. He thought limping was correct, and I still thinking raising is...but we both say it's close.

ILOVEPOKER929...I really hoping that you are using a lousy form of hyperbole when you say that
[ QUOTE ]

Turning a profitable situation into an unprofitable one is not my idea of good poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think that putting in 2 (or 3 or 4 or 182) bets preflop with an average hand (this hand is probably about the avg. limping hand that the two limpers would have), on the button, against two HORRIBLE postflop players is unprofitable, you are way wrong. In fact, if it's not profitable for your postflop abilities, you are definitely better off just mucking it preflop. Seriously and sincerely.

The way that I figure it is....if it's simply showdown poker (i.e. no postflop play), and it's me and the two limpers, I'll win about 30-35% of the time. If it's me, the two limpers, and the two blinds, I'll win about 20-25% of the time. These are simple, rough guesstimates.

Given that the limpers are both uberpassive, I won't be bluffed, and I'll have every opportunity to make my hand. Moreover, since I have position, I have a ton of postflop stealing/bluffing equity. Yes, they are very loose, but they are 40-80 players. They won't call with J9 on an A83 flop (though they will take one off with 44).

Meh, it's becoming more and more clear to me. If you have any postflop ability at all, this is a raise. If you just sit and wait until you make your hand, even on the button, you should probably muck, or maybe limp.

Josh