[pokerswami]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think one of the most important lessons here is that a hand is never mucked until it's actually in the muck. Rulings on this do vary from place to place, but a hand that a) hasn't been properly tabled and b) is irretrievably mucked can't risk being ruled "live" under almost any circumstance.

When I have conducted dealer training I have always emphasised the importance of mucking folded hands quickly and irretrievably. This eliminates many grey areas, and means that arguments such as this one simply don't arise. It also makes the floor's job much easier when they are called over to disputes such as this.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case it wouldn't matter if the cards hit the muck. Action was complete(all in and call) and the cards were tabled. Cards speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

In a cardroom where dealers are trained to pull into the muck folded cards as the OP described and Brettski talks about above, then only 1 live hand remains after the flop.

If only 1 live hand remains, there is no need for the dealer to put out the turn and river. The pot could reasonably be pushed to the sole remaining live hand, provided the pot is corrrect.

I realize this is a huge (potential) cluster f***, but when the player picked up his cards and threw them face down towards the muck, most places would have the dealer immediately pull them into the muck. It doesn't matter that he had previously properly tabled the hand. That hand is now out of play and in the original post description there is only the one remaining live hand.

Since in the original description the dealer didn't scoop up the cards, the player can retrieve his own cards and re-table them face-up. The dealer created this mess by not mucking the folded cards immediately, thereby ending the need for dealing further board cards.

It would have been completely different if the tabling of hands had taken place after the board was complete. Then the properly tabled hands could have been read even if one of them was subsequently turned face down by the player.

__________________________________________________ __________

edited to add: Hey, after over 2 1/2 years, it's my 400th post! That's like 1 week for MicroBob.