[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
everybody is talking about the black market. if we ban guns, they would get them anyway, so there's no point. that's like saying we should allow killing, cause it happens anyway.

first guns must be banned. of course you would have to do a lot about the black market too. in norway, i'm sure we have a black market where you can buy guns. but the point is, IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET ONE! a maniac can't just get a gun without an effort. it's impossible. he would have to have contacts and look carefully. this is excactly what i wrote in the original post. of course people would still get guns, and people would still get killed. but that's not the point! the point is to make it as safe as possible.



[/ QUOTE ]

ORLY?

Here are exerpts of an online conversation I had with a cop about 'the drug war'. He had no defense for the current approach. He asserted that it's because politicians are greedy and people want to be rich for the reason drugs are here. He asserted that we know where the drug growing areas are and who is in charge and 'if we really wanted to do something' we could.

I told him good luck with his flight to colombia and the golden triangle. I also told him that the meth manufacturers wish him a great success!

Then he came back with this and our conversation is as follows:

cop writes:

Youve successfully detailed how big of a problem the drug problem is in the US. I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, the solution you suggest is unrealistic and will never happen. I doubt that there is more than one person on these boards that agrees with you. I doubt that more than 5% of the US population would agree with you.

As bad as the drug problem is here, you clearly dont have the solution.

If shipments of surface to air missles, RPGs, or any other kind of heavy weaponry were entering the counrty on a daily basis, I can guarantee you that we would stop it and stop it very quickly. Its not that hard to stop large shipments of anything coming in.

Large amounts of weapons would kill alot of people
Drugs kill alot of people

The difference is that heavy weapons like the ones I mentioned would kill innocent, middle class people. Drugs kill mostly lower class poor people that the majority of society doesnt consider to be innocent since they voluntarily take the drugs.

Therefore nobody gives a [censored] about those people dying and nothing is really done to stop it. Its always been that way and it always will be that way.

Drugs will never be legalized so why keep harping on it. I personally think the US would be alot better off if we banned or heavily taxes import cars. That will never happen either.

BK says:
You are correct that it would be easy to stop shipments of missles but it is a false analogy to comare that to the ability to stop drugs. The reason it would be easy to stop missles being imported is that there are not millions of people in the country demaning them and waving cash in the air to purchase them. There is no demand.

Also, drugs do not kill very many people. Well, alcohol and tobacco kill a small amount, but herion and cocaine dont kill nearly as many. It's not about who is being killed. Poor drug addicts get killed/locked up much more frequently than middle class and upper class ones. The reason is because the middle class and upper class can afford the markup price put on the drugs due to their status as illegal so they don't engage in violence and theft to get the funds to purchase them nearly as often as poor people do.
They also have better access to legal 'prescription' pharmaceutical drugs as there is more scrutiny by doctors in granting access to them to the poor.

It is all about perception. That is why the current situation exists. People don't even realize that if drugs were legalized the violence in the streets would stop. lol

The solution to ending the drug war is the same solution to ending the drug problem.

Education.

In a subsequent post I say:

If you want to continue with the missles issue, first we need to figure out what the actual costs of producing them is. Then we have to assume there are millions (say 5% of the population) that not only is demanding them but actually has the money to pay the markup costs of getting those missles to the people. This alone puts your scenario in fantasy land because people can not afford to pay the price.

We can't just pretend that the country and world is as it is today and there are boats periodically pulling up with missles. We have to pretend that there are millions of people with the cash waiting to pay for them and then realize we are talking about trillions and trillions of dollars. In your scenario you are trying to pretend the world is like it is today where almost no one wants the missles and there is no money sitting on hand to pay for them. You can't just create a fantasy world where economics doesn't exist and use it to try to prove a point. There is no money to incentivise the missle smugglers and no money to bribe the regularory people.

So go gather some numbers and lets see what kind of $ we are talking about (we will get into more details about the actual massive demamd for them later if you wish to continue).

If everyone is agaisnt the missles coming in then it's much much easier to keep them out (plus no demand incentive to bring them in).

Cop says: The high demand for drugs has absolutley no bearing on whether or not we are ABLE to stop them from coming in. It may affect whether or not we WANT to, but not whether or not we are able to.

bk says: It has everyting to do with it. You cant assume that everyone on the customs force and every politician and every coast guard crewman and every soldier and every dea agent and every cop is some non human machine that is immune to corruption and single mindedly bent on preventing drugs comeing into the country like you are doing in your fantsay world were we are 'able' to do it.

We have to talk about the real world with real people and real desires and real needs. We are talking about world politics and world economics in the grey and black markets. That is a subject that I can not speak intelligently about so I will not pretend I can. If you can explain the politics and economics to me (which I assume you cant since you don't even realize that the prohibition is what creates the violence) then I am all ears



cop says: Drugs kill and / or ruin the lives af many many more people than terrorists do or have

bk says: OK. But terrorism is not a commodity that 5% of the population wants so there is no demand for it. 5% of the population is not waving cash in the air in efforts to purchase terrorism like they are doing to purchase drugs.

Also, although we have people in this country that argue against authoritarian rule and might say things that lead you to believe they 'support terrorism' like some radical liberal voices, they do not reallly want buildings blowing up in the usa.

So we are virtually ALL against having terrorism here and there are almost no neutral people when it comes to haveing terrorism actually imported. There are people that are against authoritarian measures being implemented, but they are also against terrorism. And they all do have acutal meters inside themselves about when we need to 'do something', and what kinds of things should be done, but it is probably differnt than yours.

But with drugs there are plenty of people who are not users that are closer to neutral about the issue of having drugs imported than there are for those who are neutral about having actual concrete terrorism imported.

he basically quit the discussion shortly after this saying he disagrees but respects the effort i put into the conversation.

p.s. How much are you willing to pay for a glock where you are at? Please forward me prices you are willing to pay for both over and under 50 guns. I know it will be impossible for me to get them to you....hahhaa yeah right!

It's all about supply and DEMAND.