[BobboFitos]

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this is kind of an absurdly old thread to bump but i had some questions with bobbo's post.

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had to reread that post again to see what i was saying =) Ill try to answer your qs.

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firstly, i think it is a good post and you make a lot of good points bobbo...but for the most part i disagree with raising 99 on that flop vs. most players.

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one stipulation, I made the case for raising there while deep stacked (3k in a 5-5 game) whereas mike's article hero played a very short stack (60bb I think?). that was a huge sticking point to me.
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for the sake of argument let's say the villain is a good tricky lag/tag. in that case i think raising 99 purely for information is pretty bad because he will(probably) quickly catch on you are raising these types of hands and maybe 3-ball you with air or call and c/r the turn or call and lead the turn etc. etc.

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hmm, first, i think this metagame can be ignored bc if we raise w/ 99, villain wont see it, so he prolly will think we had a set or bluff or whatever; point is, he can draw his own conclusions. secondly, i recommended the line (vs that type) to check the turn if you raise the flop, which puts the same amount of money in as call flop bet turn... but your line is bluffier (which now induces a bluff on end, which is great) since you now have a good bluff catcher. (or, a nice solid value bet vs a lag)
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and there are probably other lines he can take which will make your raise for 'information' not so informative.


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I agree, im not even sure if i argued a flop raise in that case was primarily for info, really it's for value where you get information along with it. i think the term in essence (raising "SOLELY" for information) is a little silly but other things that go along with it (ala seizing initiative) has value.

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i do think raising this flop with 99 as stacks get deeper is valuable but for a different reason which you alluded to but didn't really pin point. i think if you are raising this flop with air fairly often or even often enough that u think he is catching on(re: jt example) and u feel he might be getting fed up with you putting so much pressure on him. then merging your range from only {monsters, air} and maybe a semi-bluff from time to time and adding in marginal made hands as well will make it tough for him to be so sure you always have a monster or air, which admittedly will usually be air more often than not and he will have to be a bit more cautious when you raise this flop as you don't always have to fold the 99 when he 3-balls you now.

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yeah, true. although i am pretty aggro on the flop, my range is strassa esque in terms of a ton of middling hands (its not nuts or air).
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unfortunately still he will not know if you are raising for information or raising the merge your range, and as long as he knows these hands are in your range he can open up his flop 3-betting range and it will be tough on us either way. but i think as long as our mindset behind the raise is to do it to merge our range it can be profitable.


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yeah.. i am not really worried about being 3bet bluffed.
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in general though i think calling is usually best because it is more profitable to keep him in the pot with his bluffs if you think he will continue with a 2nd or even 3rd barrel so you can pick those bluffs off, rather than raise and having him fold these hands with 6 outs UNLESS you think a flop raise will result in him having a higher bluffing frequency than a flat call. not sure if any of this is very coherent and these are just my thoughts on the matter, but i thought it was an interesting thread.

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yeah, interesting point, and funny enough (vs a tag) I think the best answer was neither call nor raise but actually fold (vs someone who has a tight raising range but is very aggro w/ AK and overpairs, which isnt really universially the truth) it was only when villains flop range (so its very very difficult to call down "correctly") was wider then raising became valuable.