[BCPVP]

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BCPVP you said that the church cannot kill but you agree with me that the cowboys can win a game.

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The football players who play for the Dallas Cowboys can win a game, with some players contributing more than others. Members or officials of the Catholic Church can and have killed. To kill is an a verb, which means action and action cannot be performed by an abstraction. Whatever references to such action being "done" by abstractions that we make in casual conversation are figures of speech and little more.

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exactly we are having casual conversation. were not splittng atoms here. im glad you finally see the light.

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Casual conversation, is it now? I thought it was supposed to be serious debate that you were trying inspire. If it's the latter, then we better start breaking out our nuclear reactors. If not, then I'd like to know what the purpose of your OP was? What do you want us to do if we agree the Church, and not individual people, is responsible for things like the Crusades? It seemed pretty clear to me that you want us to stigmatize the Church the way Hitler is stimatized, which means you believe we should be "punishing" it for actions in the past. Is that what you want?

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i just had a thought and wanted to see what other people had to say. the church does do good things but isnt it ironic that it is founded on so much violence and lies. Without this evil period in the churches life it would be a totally different organization. I didnt come to the conclusion that the reason the church gets off the hook because faith is blind until after half way through this post.

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Why do you still persist with the claim that anyone is "letting anyone off the hook" with regards to past atrocities? I'm certainly not in favor of letting anyone who was responsible for those atrocities off the hook. I just don't condemn everyone for the sins of one or two or twenty men nor do I try to condemn the current batch for the sins of those in the past.

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If you replace Catholic Church with Iraq i dont think we would be arguing about anything. Like i said before since God is involved everyone is blind. Nobody would elect hitlers great great great grandson as president because he carries the hitler name and legacy. he would not be able to escape from his past. I would never be able to forgive hitler in my lifetime no matter how much good he did.

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I don't think I could forgive Hitler either. Nor am I sure I could forgive Pope Urban II for starting the Crusades or Pope Innocent IV (ha!) for authorizing torture during the medieval inquistions. But I would be wrong to blame all Catholics now for the crimes of people they never knew or met or could have had any meaningful relationship with. Apparently you subscribe to some "sins of the father" belief system, which I'd say makes you worse than many of the religions you so despise.