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Old 01-25-2007, 03:59 PM
Megenoita Megenoita is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: VA
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Default Re: Is poker gambling?

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a few links to past "Is Poker Gambling?" threads (they pop up regularly):

Is Poker Gambling?
Another one
Yet another

The short answer is yes. You'll get a lot of people who say no, but they're just arguing semantics and trying to rewrite the definition of "gambling". There's always RoR in poker.

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Name one thing in life where there's not RoR in some sense.

When lay people talk about whether poker is gambling, they mean, does an element of chance prevail theoretically? Although they never state this as such, that's what they mean. And the answer is, for the skilled poker player who has an edge, in the long run, no, poker is not gambling. If you argue that there's RoR in poker, well there's the same in putting your money in an insured bank. The bank could go broke via a national crisis, China could blow up our country when you're on vacation, etc. There's always RoR, no matter how minute. If you ask me my RoR with my BR playing the stakes I do, it's probably around 1/20,000. So it's gambling? I have a better chance of winning some lotteries than going broke.

When people on 2.2 say poker is definitely "gambling", they mean it is wagering something of value on an uncertain outcome. However, when lay people discuss whether poker is gambling, they're obviously not talking about the same definition; for everyone knows that the game wagers money on an outcome that is not known. The real question that people are asking is, is poker a game where skill or chance predominates? They're asking if poker is a game where skill will prevail, or will luck?

Believe me, when lay people ask you if poker is a game of skill or luck, if it's "gambling", for the true, wise professional, the answer is, "no".

For unwise pros, it can be b/c they play above their BR, they tilt and play -EV poker, they literally gamble with coinflips all in preflop, they go for draws when they know they don't have the odds when they're steaming, etc.

For wise pros who play well within their bankroll, their RoR is lower than pretty much all investments in the real world, and if they play at stakes where their edge is large, at least in NL, you win somewhere around 6/7 days played, assuming around 2k-2.5k hands/day and no tilt.

Because lay people don't think investing in stocks is gambling, or owning one's own business, or starting a new business, then neither is professional poker for the wise pro. Not in the way most people discuss it. In a technical sense? Yes. Practically by what people mean when they discuss it on a daily basis? No.

People who don't play poker need to understand that it's a game of skill, that my money is more certain than their paycheck. I can't have a losing month b/c my edge is too big, I play too many hands, and I have so many forms of cushion such as rakeback and bonuses. I gamble a lot less than most businesses, yet for them it's called "investing".

For outsiders, we have to be careful what we allow them to call "gambling", and be clear about how they are defining it compared to how we are. You should ask them to define it before answering their question.
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