Re: hiv and shaundeeb are total scum
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Well, this
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Look, if I had to do it all over again, I would do everything the same except I would actually try to conceal who was playing
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and this
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As for playing on someone elses account, it is a grey area that I was willing to enter to have the opportunity to bust you in a series of escalating HU LHE freezeouts, but that ship has sailed.
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clears up any doubt that you're a scumbag.
The rest of your points have been covered already ad nauseum in the other thread.
I’ll address each argument, though.
1) Substituting for someone else in a heads-up freezeout match is not cheating because it doesn’t say so in the T&C.
There are plenty of things that we can consider cheating that are not covered in the T&C. Grimstarr verbally agreeing to a flipament, then backing out when his opponent pushes because of his weak cards is cheating. I would say there is 99% consensus on this. It is not covered in the T&C.
Why is it cheating? Cheating can be defined as swindling or defrauding someone, or depriving them of a right, money, or property by fraud. When Grimstarr folded when his opponent pushed, he directly stole hundreds of dollars of expected value out of his opponent’s pocket after agreeing to a fair, verbal contract. Nearly everyone can agree that Grimstarr cheated, including Grimstarr. He eventually admitted that mistake and we’ve generally moved on.
If I am challenged by HIV on 2p2 to a heads-up freezeout, and you sub in for him after we agree to sit down and play, you are directly stealing hundreds of dollars of expected value from my and Nath’s pocket. You are depriving me of expected value through fraudulent methods. This is the text-book definition of cheating.
2) There is no breach of trust between me and any of the parties involved.
I’m not sure how you can say this with a straight face, but there definitely was a breach of trust involved. You issued a challenge to me on 2p2 under the guise of someone else and tried to trick me into playing you in a headsup freezeout. Whether or not this trust was deserved is an entirely different argument, which you address below.
3) “If you don't think things like this happen in the world of high stakes poker you are very naive. I have had people switch back and forth on me while playing HU, people play me under different accounts, etc. I never really gave it a second thought. If you suspect something is up, just quit.”
“If it happens all the time, this makes it legitimate and the ends justify the means”. This argument has been brought up and rehashed a dozen times in the other thread. I’ll just quote a poster who can say it better than I can:
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omg dishonest people exist
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Please ban the next [censored] who says something like this. It's not shocking that they exist, just that individuals that were thought to be stand-up guys are not. These are well-known members of a live/online community, not just SNs.
Once again, some young kids need to learn a valuable gambling lesson: Your word is your bond, and your rep is more important than an instant score.
Do you think young douchebags like Grimm HIV Tongni would be warned by a relative stranger if they heard that one of these kids was gonna get cheated/angle-shot somehow? No way. But nath and guild are clearly trustworthy and straight-up enough dudes that even Internet friends feel obliged to warn them about impending foul play. In other words,
"See, a friend is better than a dollar,
Cuz if you don't have a friend,
your dollar won't spend."
Blues Song
i.e. PWNED
Now HIV will never get a chance to get his money back, fairly or not, while GW will live happily ever after and bang hot chicks. If nath or guild go bust or get robbed at a bus station or need a couch or meth or a car with a big trunk at 4am, they can call someone who doesn't know them that well, based on their rep. You guys can't.
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As for your last point, where do you draw the line
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4) Where do you draw the line where it is ethical and unethical? If I show up randomly while he happens to be playing, comment on a few hands then leave, is that unethical? If I am sweating him on AIM and he tells me his hands and I tell him when he should switch gears, is that cheating? If he plays but I tell him every single thing to do is that cheating? If I click the buttons but he tells me every single thing to do is that unethical? If I offer my own commentary but the final decision is up to him? If I play three hands for him while he goes to the bathroom? 5? 10?
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I agree with you that this it is a difficult grey area, especially considering poker rooms are morally ambiguous when it comes to their customers (see the thread in highstakes where Full Tilt did nothing about a high-stakes player being robbed). As the overwhelming consensus on 2p2 illustrates though, there is clearly a line drawn before ‘actively calling someone out into a heads-up freezeout and pretending to be someone else in an attempt to scam them out of money’.
Zach
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I didn't read your post because I was too busy punching orphans in the stomach, but HU?
(you can get whoever you want to play on your account)
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