[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah. As Magic pointed out, the conditions you stated aren't really necessary for evolution. Evolution occurs within species too... we don't necessarily have to talk about speciation to talk about evolution.

This appears to be a semantic problem though. I think when you say the "presupposed processes of natural evolution" you are talking about evolution giving rise to the diversity of species. Which your conditions are required for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't argue the point of "evolution" in the most general sense, as it is too broad. It is the process of speciation that I note logical problems with.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are admitting that evolution occurs in a general sense, then speciation should be easy to understand, as already stated. Take a fertile species, and separate them into two groups. Maybe half of them travel east, while the rest go west. Since evolution involves a random process, clearly these two groups will evolve separately, no?

~MagicMan

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, I've seen you do mathematical posts before. Use logic.

I'm not conceding "evolution" at all. I'm just not addressing it directly in favour of another point, i.e. speciation, which is logically weak.

The two groups you mention will "evolve" until their lines go extinct due to internal infertility.

[/ QUOTE ]

<LOGIC>
Given a group, A, which consists of entirely interfertile individuals:

Divide A into two groups, A1, and A2. These groups are initially interfertile.

Physically separate the groups. They no longer interact, and they move to different environments. One moves to the desert, one moves to a swamp.

Both groups will undergo the "process of evolution," which is defined above. That is, mutations will occur within each group. Some of them will be beneficial to the group, and some will be harmful. However, it is extremely unlikely that the same mutation would be useful to both groups. For example, some individual in group A1, in the desert, may experience a mutation which allows them to store water in their body for future use. This would be a HUGE benefit to an individual in group A1. It would probably NOT be a benefit to an individual in group A2. Thus, each group will begin to diverge, adapting to their current habitat. The groups, many generations later, now become B1 and B2

Some of the mutations that occurred, in addition to helping the groups in their new habitats, caused them to be infertile with the other group. When you but B1 back together with B2, they can no longer mate. Whence, speciation.

</LOGIC>

~MagicMan