[Tommy Angelo]

Hi Barron,

"two things i didn't see in there though are 1) how often do you get 4 bet on that flop?...this complicates matters b/c you're now getting odds to call down to river anyways and just paying more 2) you have no Gack here getting 5.25:1 on a 5.6:1 shot (assuming 7 clean outs). you are not folding this turn if you call the flop and he bets."

Sure I am. I mean, I don't know if I am. It would totally depend on the moment. I am prepared to muck if he bets the turn, even if he doesn't fourbet the flop.

I don't assume I have 7 clean outs because that assumption is not based on reality. The reality is sometimes he will have a set, or two pair, or A8 or A5 or A2, and in all those cases, I have four outs to make a straight, and hitting an ace costs me at least 1BB on the turn and river combined. Plus he could have 34 and I could catch an ace and lose. So if he has one of those hands, and he bets the turn, I think the math says it is correct to fold. (Unless he has 34 in which case I'm raising that audacious bastard!)

I'm not saying I know when he has me nutted. I'm just saying that I don't think it's right to assume that folding to a turn bet is a mistake, even after the pot gets pumped up by a called fourbet.

Plus we didn't even talk about what if I fivebet the flop. So quickly the trees grow!

"further, lets change your hand to A6 (i forget the board but some ace w/ a kicker below the top card and no other straight/flush draw). how do you feel about 3 betting the c'r now vs. gacking it up?"

Now it depends. You've invented an entirely new hand by my way of seeing it, one that branches immediately into a region with too many branches that are player/moment dependent to even talk about. The key difference between Paluka's hand and your hand is that with the A4, I am always betting the flop, and I am never folding to the checkraise. Those two instances of "always" and "never" being in play were the reason I raised my hand (<-- a pun waiting to happen!) in the first place. With A6, I might not bet the flop, and I might fold to the checkraise. Whole new ballgame.

There's a contradiction in my posts I'd like to clear up. In a prior post I wrote...

"I already have my hand. Ace-high. I’d be happy to put in 2 or 3 bets on the flop and turn ‘em over and run it out and see who wins. So I’m definitely not folding to the checkraise, which leaves calling or raising."

Then I talked about the straight draw. In the above paragraph, what I meant was ...

"I have Ace-high which is a showdownable hand at that time of the checkraise, given the betting and cards. In addition to ace-high, I have straight outs. The two things combined make me certain I am not folding before the turn."

In your example, with A6 and no straight draw, I would not always commit to seeing the turn against all opponents all the time. With A4 I would.

"also, in this current hand [A4], assuming you do 3bet the flop, how are you approaching that same turn/river?"

Hopefully with my thinker off.

Tommy