[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
" Not value betting the river. this i bad, especially when in position against an opponent who is very unlikely to be drawing. this (VERY) often happens on J and T high boards where it's almost given that someone has hit with KT or AJ and the other guy hit his connector. Players always seem to dog this; remember that river value bets are the best money in holdem, because the loser is always drawing dead. Don't leave this money on the table.

2. Not allowing a probable drawer to bluff the river. very often when the flop comes Ace etc. people will call to the river to try and spike their flush. sometimes they have as little as $5 left by the river and only a busted draw to show for it. most players holding a strong ace at 25NL will shove it in and inevitably fold out the drawer; if you're out of position check it to him and let him try a desperation bluff; you want him to pay his whole stack for his draw, not just most of it.
"

Are these not contradictory?

[/ QUOTE ]

just reread the post and realized how terribly i put all of this. what i was discussing is playing with position on a (nearly) drawless board versus playing out of position on a draw heavy board, both with top pair kind of hands.

the real overlying message is this: make a read and go with it. don't bet because you have a hand, bet because of what you think he has. if you've got quads, don't shove it in on the river if you think he missed his draw cos you're bulletproof, let him bluff. conversely, if you've got a very marginal hand like KJ on a drawless board, you need to realize that most players will raise AJ and so all the other J's are paying you, so whn he checks to you, put a value bet out there as your holding, though very shaky, is probably best >80% of the time.

One relevant anecdote: A while back i showed a friend who was (is) a struggling actor how to beat the 25NL games on party and one thing that shocked me was his innate ability to read hands. i spent a day making him verbalize his reads ("he's probably got diamonds because he didn't raise and called very quickly" etc.) and then making him think about what he needs to do to play well against those kinds of hands. he made 6 buyins that day, and promptly lost most of them playing home alone that night. point is that this guy is not half as smart as the average 2+2er and he could read hands great if he thought about it a little, far too often i see players betting hands because they have them (I have to bet this marginal overpair in a multiway raised pot...) and this will get you a small profit, simply because you play better starters and therefore will, in general have a better hand, but if you want to make real money, your bets should be made to induce mistakes in the most likely hand the villain could hold.

fim