[iceman5]

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The absurd setup situations being presented obviously don't do much justice as far as illustrating the arguements between raising and limping. Those situations happen so infrequently that even if there is some value gained from limping a hand in a situation where you may get a weaker hand to come along and flop a 2nd best hand like that, raising will generally still make you more money in the long run because the majority of situations wont be setups like that, and you will be gaining $ from the initiative and subsequent fold equity / +EV situations created by raising, whereas by limping you are passing up on that. That being said, table dynamics could certainly sway a raise to a limp, especially (but certainly not exclusively) due to stack sizes present.

JKrantz is correct in bringing up the fact that by raising, you knock out certain hands out of their ranges, though. It is one benefit of raising and certainly needs to be mentioned. It is especially true with hands such as suited connectors. You really cant be too confident in the strength of your hand when you get a lot of action when the flush completes in a multiway limped pot and you are holding two rags of that suit. When you raise and eliminate a wide range of suited hands above yours, and are playing against fewer people with far thinner / more defined ranges, your situations become much clearer.

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I agree with you and I agree with most of his other points. I was just saying that his flush over flush example was a poor argument for raising being better than limping.