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Old 05-01-2006, 03:40 PM
Magikist Magikist is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 247
Default Re: Pty 10/20 Weak fold?

In his response, Kap addressed some of the points I would have made here.

First of all, I'd like emphasize the point that in my original post I qualified my statement by stating only that 3-betting the flop is only sometimes correct.

Again, my statement that we should be seeing a showdown against a BB defender on an 872 flop is qualified by the term usually. There are some clear turn-river combinations on this board that oblige you to fold the river unimproved.

But like anything, the type of player the BB is, the nature of your previous interactions with him, and your table image are all the most relevant factors to consider here.

That's why if he's the type of player to cap with a draw or a pair, or you've had repeated interactions with him where he doesn't respect your 3-bets any more, you should be much less inclined to 3-bet his c/r.

Your analysis of villain's busted-draw bluffing tendencies on the river if we take a passive call-down approach is oversimplified. First of all, you assume a generic villain. In reality, not every player will interpret our line as a draw.

While I'll concede that a good percentage of the time he will continue bluffing, this does not make always calling down the optimal play. Especially if you've called down with ace high against this player before, my experience is that players are capable of giving up. A line I've encountered more frequently is when they check the turn after you've just called their flop checkraise. This puts you in a very difficult spot that you could have avoided by 3-betting. Again, I also want to emphasize the fold equity you gain on the turn when you 3-bet preflop against many opponents if your image is good OR if they are sufficiently bad. Preventing them from seeing the river with initiative when they are betting with a worse hand is important.

Finally, checking behind on the turn is giving the opponent an illusory free card. When heads up, free cards are not the taboo they are when multiway. If you were going to check behind on the river unimproved anyways, but instead check behind on the turn and call a river bluff, the results are the same. Many players will be induced to bluff the river after a turn check. If you check behind on the turn to a semi-scare card they may not bet the river with a better hand, giving you a free showdown. In addition, players who would have folded to a turn bet are more inclined to bet a worse hand on the river.

You simply can't argue that adopting exclusively one line in a very common scenario is superior to utilizing several different options, each tailored to the opponent and the current game conditions. To assert this would be to have zero conception of the advantages of employing game theoretical counter-strategies.

I am not arguing that 3-betting is always good, or that calling down is never good. Each one has its place. There are meta-game benefits from each of them, although I prefer to remain more on the aggressive side so I usually opt for the 3-bet in close calls.

Mainly, you want to discourage opponents from thinking they can take a pot away from you on low flops. You don't do this by calling down. You do this by punishing their bluffs. AK does not have a vastly superior equity advantage over random hands if both hands are going to showdown. It does, however, have a vastly superior equity advantage on flops they both miss, which is what happens the majority of the time. Against many opponents, a flop c/r on this board is going to be a bluff/semi-bluff probably half the time. Calling down permits these hands to catch up and punish you for not protecting your equity advantage. Calling down also encourages opponents to exploit you by A) value betting you with anything, and B) pushing draws with impunity.

** Also, just calling the flop to reserve a turn raising opportunity is a good point, but not an overriding factor. C'mon, how many 10/20 players bet out on the turn into PFR when an A or K falls? Not many, and the ones that do are usually doing so with the intention of folding to a raise or 3-betting it. I think the best times to call the flop and raise the turn is when you have a good image and you DON'T hit, because it's a very strong move that can get made hands like 44 or K2 to fold (never mind bluffs), and there are many bad cards that fall on the turn for those hands.
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