[PlayaHata]

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I've spoken my mind about this before, but here's my take:

There would be no problem with PT as far as I'm concerned if it didn't lead to the use of other programs that can function from the information gathered (HUDs, etc.). PT as a stand-alone program is great for keeping records, self analysis, and collusion detection among other things. Nothing wrong with that because you don't use it while you play.

I personally have a problem with software aids that run and assist you with your actual decisions during the play of the game (at the table). If PT MUST lead to that, I see where the OP is coming from. If there is a way to prevent PT data from being used in manner that causes "unfair advantages", then I have no problems with PT use and access.

As far as T&Cs go for poker sites, I have only dealt with Party on that. I know that their clauses state that programs giving an unfair advantage are not allowed. They don't specifically mention PT, PA, PM, Gametime+, Free PHG, iWitness, AHK, and many, many others that we don't even know about (this is a HUGE problem, and I'll get to it in a minute). That doesn't mean Party allows them. Everyone just ASSUMES Party allows them. PT and PA are strange entities because 1) they are wide-spread and 2) people have asked Party about their legitimacy. Let's talk about #2. Just because a CSR says something's OK, doesn't mean that it's the official stance of Party and their T&C writers. Anyone who's dealt with Party CS should know that. I'm fairly certain that Party doesn't see ANY software aids as acceptible, and the ONLY reason that they haven't cracked down on PT or PA is because they are worried about losing a large mass of players....NOT because they feel the programs are fair. Nevertheless, the T&Cs don't specifically say these programs are accepted. The same goes for datamining. Party has takes steps to prevent/limit datamining, but their T&C doesn't specifically mention it (I'm pretty sure I know why). Which brings us to:

Software programs NOT mentioned in the T&C that WE don't know about.

NOW, it gets messy. As Moo mentioned earlier in this thread, there are programs floating around that we aren't aware of. This essentially makes us just like the fish that aren't aware of the PT/PA combo. These programs aren't specifically mentioned in the T&C either, so I guess that makes them OK, right? Wrong. The T&C doesn't say you aren't allowed to develop your own programs either. Where do we draw the line? Should poker become a "survival of the fittest" battle between software engineers and their users? I don't think any of us want to see that, especially if we're better than the competition because of our brains alone.

Think about it. If you were the best online poker player in the world when no tools existed, did your edge go up or down with the addition of tools? It's not hard to see what has happened and what can happen. The game should be played straight up as the sites intended it. Again, this does not mean PT is unethical IMO, but the things that come of it...that run while you play...ARE.

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AMAZING POST.
Your comments on where we draw the line is my REAL arguement. Im glad a few readers out there understood this. Most everyone got caught up on the part where i bash PT that they forget what my OP was really aimed at.

again, amazing post.