An observation and a reminder
 

First off, I recommend everyone that haven't read Gigabet's thread "Almost There With Success and Failure" to stronlgy do so since this thread is somewhat like that, but I have a few things to add to the posters in this forum that I have observed lately. I hope this makes sense to you all and is in no way any critique to any of the posters I mention, I just use them as examples. Btw, my whole post is mainly supposed to be used postflop but is of course also to be used preflop in what people may think is tough situations.

I have no idea how this will be seen upon.

Gigabet is mentioning that the best way of learning is to just watch and study every hand you are involved with, ever! That is the best advice anyone can ever give you as a poker player. So what am I really trying to say with this thread? I am saying that I don't even think 50% of you here do that (the number is probably alot higher). Alot of the posters I have seen here seem to play automatically and not even playing the player at all except for the basics, like, "he is tight and now he is betting, guess my TPTK ain't good, I better fold"). While that works in some way you all can do so much better. Why can't he have TPGK? What does he put you on? What is your image to him? Do he know you at all? There is so much more than the basic reads (I don't even want to call them basic reads, more like,,, stone age reads) and if you want to improve from an average player to a good player or even a shark you can't play your hand, not even once. Your hand is only one part of the whole hand and in the end it's not even that important since in MTT's, how many hands truely reaches showdown? Exactly. Play your opponent, your hand only matters when facing an all in or if someone is potcommitting themselves.

I see alot of players here reaching FT pretty often. One player I have to give credit to is Gobboboy. I have been watching him alot lately trying to pick up a few things from him and he made really outstanding calls and raises that he of course wins at. So what have I observed at Gobboboy that the average player don't do? He plays the player and I bet you, that he is pretty damn sure he knows when he got him and therefor makes an outstanding call. Without ever talking to Gobboboy on AIM or what kind of IM he use I am sure he atleast have a few (more than 2-3 reasons) to why he plays like he did, while the average player think (he is tight, he is loose, I got TP, etc...) You see my point yet? Don't it ever get to the point where your hand matters more than 25% of how you play. The reason to why I pick 25% is that I try to have atleast 3 good reasons before calling/raising and if it's still a big meh, my hand matters. Let's also put position and other importans aspect's into this, so let's say the "Other" takes, 10%. So that leaves a whole 65% to nothing but your reads and observations.

I only have one example. Unknown player to me but he brings up questions that makes me go, uh-oh. Alot of the hands mentioned is pretty easy and straightforward if you know your opponents. This hand "It gets folded to the SB who bets 3,5bb and I am in the BB with Ax. Should I fold?" made me question myself. How would he play it if it was J7o? or 46s? Probably folding but is that ever correct here? More often than not, it's not correct to fold here! Unless you have a huge pile on information on your opponent telling you otherwise. Remember, only 25% of your decision should be made up on your hand.

Now, I only took the example of one unknown person to me, but I am so sure this applies to ton's of players that makes it far it tournaments from time to time and consider themselves to be good players. I have some friends that are good players that makes it far somewhat frequently but they always ask me what to do and they have been at the table for alot of time without any reads and thoughts for how to play the hand more than what their holding is. Meh.

So to conclude it all, what I am trying to say is, alot of you players out there can be the very best of the poker elite but you have to stop playing on a level 1 basis. I think of level 1 basis like I have said earlier.

*Reading players by stone-age reads
*Playing your cards way to much.

And to be brutally honest, ALOT of you are still here even if you make it far from time to time. Just imagine how long you would go if you can play J7o like you play AA because you know how your opponent plays and when you are beaten. It's so much better and will get you so much further and so much more often. However, if you can't do the 2 basics things we learn when first starting playing poker (1# playing your hand and 2# playing in position) this don't really apply to you just yet. In the end, it all comes down to, the better you recognize the situation the easier it will be for you, so we are back at Gigabets thread again and the study every hand you ever see thing. Just some observations I have seen and a reminder to those of you reading gigabets thread and yet not applying any of it.

Comments? Thoughts?

/Heaven

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

I agree about paying more attention to every hand at every table. I wish I could do it. I find that all I use are the basic reads, and I make notes about what a player will CC with PF, or what he Minraises with, and the other stuff like that.

I always read about betting patterns and reading your opponent, but to be honest I have never really understood it all that well. I have read a lot of books, and I understand the math of most situations, and I imagine I use that to get by. Does anyone have any links to threads about reading online opponents, or Betting Patterns?

I think the true bottom line with Poker is that no matter how far you come, there is always something else to learn, and to think about.

C-Dog

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

Wow just wow. I just can't get any interest to my threads.

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

OK, I will bite...since this is one of the many things I feel I could improve...

I guess you make a valid point - being able to play the opponent up to as much as 65% would be awesome - Nirvana...

I try and pay attention as much as I can. Perhaps my reading skills suck, and add to that the fact that I play mainly nickel&dime buy-ins make playing "read-based" a pretty risky undertaking.

I wonder about the notion of "knowing how the other player plays"? I am not saying that people play totally at random - but just as you point out that most of us do not take full advantage of all the information available at the table - a lot of players do not have any nobel-prize-candidate thought process behind the way they bet, call or raise.

So for me personally, I feel that trying to pick up a pattern that is not there will often provide me with a false sense of security.

And I can't say that I play the same players often enough to have a reliable feel of their play to allow me to treat J7o as I would AA.


Heaven - I have read and enjoyed a lot of your posts, especially the one on notes.

How do you technically go about establishing your reads - and how much action would you say you need to witness before labeling a player or having his style pinned down?

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow just wow. I just can't get any interest to my threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I really liked it, Heaven, very nice read. I have to constantly remind myself that if I want to move up in stakes or to continue playing for a long time I simply have to keep improving, hopefully at least one little thing or two every day. Less mechanical playing, more thinking. Good post.

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

Nice post, Heaven...

This is the area in which my game sucks. I wish I could pay attention to my table instead of browsing 2+2 as soon as I've mucked. I really must improve in this area during 2006. Hell, yeah...

You were so spot on about Gobbo. Watched him play the 11r FT the other day and he really played great poker. The one hand when he put Giga on a stone cold bluff and called him down was surely not just a "What the heck, I'll call and see"-move. If I were in his seat, I'd probably just be scared seeing Giga to my left, stare at all the overcards on the table, and muck my hand without thinking.

I must also be better at reviewing a tournament after a day or so and go through A-L-L hands and see what I could've done better. That, of course, involves posting some hands every week and let other 2+2ers comment on them.

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow just wow. I just can't get any interest to my threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true, a least not where I'm concerned. It's just the fact that your posts for the most part are not DISCUSSION-PROVOKING. Meaning - I read this thread - there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I can contribute that's valuable. There's not much that MOST people here can add or subtract to that post. Your post speaks the truth, it would be silly to disagree with it... Most people will read it and go - "Yeah, you are right.." - and will move on without responding.

FWIW - I really enjoy your posts and always read them - I just have very little or nothing to add, so rarely if ever respond to them.

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

I agree with mornelth....

This was a great post...

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

C-Dog - if you haven't read it - read Heaven's post on taking notes. Great reads require a lot of info, and takin notes is a great way of collecting that info. Also - having to write notes makes you pay more attention to the game.

Re: An observation and a reminder
 

Good point. That makes sense, I just didn't see it that way. The thing is tho that when you take more than 1 hour to write a good post that you hope people will gain something from reading you kinda get surprised when there are only 1 reply in the thread when you wake up 12 hours later and that reply, came from a poster you talked to AIM about this with [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Everlong:
[ QUOTE ]
I try and pay attention as much as I can. Perhaps my reading skills suck, and add to that the fact that I play mainly nickel&dime buy-ins make playing "read-based" a pretty risky undertaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

We all play these from time to time and I play them quite frequently. Let's say atleast 3 each day and I have to say that having reads here is just as important. You would be surprised to see how many good players there actually are in the later stages of these tournaments. These players now how to play poker on a good basis (as in, they handle level 1 pretty darn well). While it's possible to make plays at them without reads it just get so much more easier with reads. Wouldn't it feel better to have a move work because you knew it where going to work and not because you where lucky just to do it in the right situation? Where the next 5 times you try to do it, it wont?

[ QUOTE ]
How do you technically go about establishing your reads - and how much action would you say you need to witness before labeling a player or having his style pinned down?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is from player to player. One hand from one player may get something or a whole lot about him. As in, how he reacts to a scary board etc... It's pretty hard to answer this question. It's different from player to player but I say on average, 10 hands and you should have below an ok estimate of his plays but it's still alot better than no information at all.

[ QUOTE ]
And I can't say that I play the same players often enough to have a reliable feel of their play to allow me to treat J7o as I would AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to counter this argument. If you really put effort into reading every hand, every opponent you ever encounter you can start putting unknown people in "groups" after just watching a few hands with them. Since you have such a nice experience of other players and hands you could make some assumptions based on your experience and put that onto the unknown player you only have a few hands on. And the more you see this player in action, the more you can change your reads on him, from the reads based on experience on other players in his "group" to the more useful personal reads.