TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

30/60. A tightish unknown limps UTG, EMP raises, huge loose passive fish (like 79/1) cold calls, I 3-bet in the CO with T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], UTG calls, EMP caps, we all call.

EMP is a regular in this game who plays at about a 25/13. I have the vague impression that he plays a little bit strangely but that's not terribly substantive and I don't think we've gotten involved in too many confrontations.

Anyway the flop is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. EMP bets, fish calls, I raise, UTG folds, EMP calls, fish calls again.

Turn is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. EMP leads out, fish calls, I raise, they both call.

River is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Check, check, check.

Curious about all three postflop streets.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

I can see good reasoning for all streets.

Preflop - good, get more info
Flop - nice to see where you're at, I'm assuming you're trying to find out if you are gonna turn unimproved
Turn - I don't mind, but don't hate, if you think you can get free showdown sure
River - I don't see much value here

Only thing, I really don't think we win too often, but if we do, this is how

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can see good reasoning for all streets.

Preflop - good, get more info
Flop - nice to see where you're at, I'm assuming you're trying to find out if you are gonna turn unimproved

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah if he 3-bets I need to spike something on the turn to continue with the hand.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

All the streets are fine. Good check through on the river.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

I like a call on the flop, planning on raising a good turn card. EMP and the fish are already in the pot, so it's not like you're going to thin the field. Also, a ton of bad cards can come on the turn to kill your equity and if you get a gutshot or something, its not likely going to be checked to you again.

I'm not sure i like the turn 3-bet either. EMP has shown a lot of strength. He probably isnt going to continue betting AK on such a draw heavy board. Also, you've got the fish to worry about... I think it's likely we're ahead of him, but not that likely. That combined with the strength EMP has shown makes me think a call is better. Also, it really sucks to get 3-bet.

No way you can bet the river after the turn raise.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

With the fish in the hand I think there is value in a river bet.

-DeathDonkey

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the fish in the hand I think there is value in a river bet.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

What range of hands do you put EMP on? The read is that he isn't manaical. He's capping PF and leading the flop and stop-n-go'ing on the turn. He'll never fold a better hand -- and even if the fish will call with a worse one, EMP always has us beat here when he calls.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

Don't think I understand the turn raise. It's a weird stop & go if he has a worse pair or overcards and I don't see a better hand folding and getting 3bet would suck.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

Turn raise is fine he gets a free showdown because of it, and he kinda disguises his hand if he gets there.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

What about when it doesn't get a free showdown? Is he never trying to bet/3bet?

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

He very well might be but it's a chance I'm willing to take.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can see good reasoning for all streets.

Preflop - good, get more info
Flop - nice to see where you're at, I'm assuming you're trying to find out if you are gonna turn unimproved


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Yeah if he 3-bets I need to spike something on the turn to continue with the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've been misplaying hands like this against this type of opponent. From what I understand EMP preflop capper isnt a maniac. When this type of opponent caps in the type of situation described, in my experience it seems to generally always be a bigger pocket pair than tens. That or a hand like AK. I myself would only cap here with AKs.

My standard line in these cases is to roll my eyes and call down, assuming that an ace or a king never hits. But now I'm beggining to think that line might suck. Is the consensus to find at if you are against a bigger pocket pair here by raising the flop? I'm assuming he wont go nuts here on this fairly drawish board with AK and 3-bet you. This hand makes me think that my standard calldown line in such scenarios is incorrect?

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

A'ight... can we give EMP a range of hands after he donks the turn?

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

After he donk the turn I think he very likely has you beaten -- it could be a scared/wierd QQ (waiting for a safe turn), a reasonably well played set that doesnt want to lose the LP just yet, or perhaps the AK spades.

After he fails to 3-bet, we can rule out the set hands, so it looks like QQ or AK spades to me.

I probably play this hand the same as you, but I'm not sure about the turn. You get 3-bet here at least some portion of the tiem.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

[ QUOTE ]
A'ight... can we give EMP a range of hands after he donks the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

qq followed by kk imo. after he donks the turn i dont think you are winning very often if at all, unless he has ak of spades, but that would be pretty retarded unless he was going to 3-bet you with it.

the combination of the unlikelyhood of you having the best hand and you getting 3bet is too much heat to stand especially since you have to call the 3bet.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

i like all 3 postflop.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

[ QUOTE ]
A'ight... can we give EMP a range of hands after he donks the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a different turn card that doesn't give you the OESD I would consider folding. As is I think the turn raise is pretty bad. I call and call again with the fishy overlay.

Krishan

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

Are you raising this turn if it were a blank?

Results
 

EMP also had TT and the other dude had K3. So we had a profitable chop. I really, really, really felt at the time like he in fact had the other TT, and that I should bet the river as a valuebluff of sorts, but didn't pull the trigger.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

I like the flop play. You want to find out where you stand. On the turn, I dunno if I like this raise here. Although it does get you a free showdown.

In this situation, I would expect EMP to have QQ, KK, or AA and maybe he got a little scared when you raised the turn. What hand did you put the fish on? The fish calling the raise, would scare me from making this play.

You played the river perfect.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

You must have focused on the "little bit strangely" part when you raised this guy on the turn. Against a normal preflop capper you don't stand at all well after he leads the turn.

It's usually a mistake to seize control on the turn in this situation when you don't know whether to bet the river blank. You aren't really getting any more money in when TT is the best hand but you are leaving yourself open to an unwelcome 3-bet. Or the stop-n-go could be repeated on the river when Villain improves or is simply happy to catch a blank.

The counterargument to the preceding paragraph is that the turn action is being padded by a third player and that's a valid point. With QQ I'd make the risky turn raise and follow up consistently by betting the river. But the weakness of TT more than offsets the third player, especially since the fish could easily have a jack or a serious draw.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

Not having read the other responses...

PF is close and I think the decision whether to CC or 3 bet hinges on the tightness/looseness of the blinds which you silent about. If you think UTG will fold when it is 2 back to him, I agree with the 3 bet. UTG calling when it is 2 back to him is a bit inconsistant with your read.

Flop is perfect, allowing for a FCP if you choose.

Turn, as played, is readable by your opponents either as a free showdown play or as a big hand. But EP leading the turn pretty much guarantees that you are behind here. That said... whatever play that you make on the turn must be made with the expectation that you will be improving on the river and the main goal would then be to maximize the river action.

In that context then, imho, best turn play would be to meekly call, inviting villain(s) to continue to bet the river. When you hit your str8 outs on the river, you may still get bet into and be able to raise. The free showdown attempt is not worth the extra BB that it cost you on the turn and it will probably kill your river action if you do improve.

Edit to say that value betting the river is really, really close.

Re: TT -- Tremendous or Terrible
 

[ QUOTE ]
A'ight... can we give EMP a range of hands after he donks the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

AA-JJ, AJs, 99.

TT, AsQs, AsKs are possible(Only 1 combo each) as are some other bizarre hands(some beat you and most you don't). Nonetheless, you're a fairly huge underdog to his hand range when he bets.